Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Henry VIII of England/archive1
-- Emsworth 22:25, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Support
Object - a great start, but what about:the Field of the Cloth of Goldsix wives: divorced, beheaded, died; divorced, beheaded, survived - (mentioned on the Talk page with no real reason for exclusionCarry On - Don't Lose Your HeadI'm Henry the Eighth, I am (Herman's Hermits, apparently)
Admittedly some of these are decidedly low-brow, but they are well-known too.-- ALoan (Talk) 11:03, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Support.
Oppose for now; I was gonna support until I read ALoan's objection, with which I'm inclined to agree.Damn good article, though; I've fixed (and broken-and-refixed) a couple of typos in the article earlier this afternoon, fwiw. — OwenBlacker 13:22, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC) - All done, except "divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived." The mnemonic is grossly inaccurate. Firstly, Henry never divorced any of his wives. Secondly, two of his wives—Anne of Cleves and Catherine Parr—survived him. Finally, Henry received annulments ("divorces") from four of his wives, not two: Catherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, Anne of Cleves and Catherine Howard. -- Emsworth
Excellent: unfortunately, that was the most important of my objections (well, perhaps not as historically significant as the Field of the Cloth of Gold, but, not to denigrate Carry On... and Herman's Hermits, certainly the most important in popular terms). At the least, the article should include the doggerel and explain why it is inaccurate. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:02, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Support
Object - Should there not be some reference to King's College Chapel, its one of the main places where tourists are likely to come across Henry VIII and it seems to have been a bit of a project of his. First he had it enlarged to show that he was better than Henry VII and Henry VI, who had started it (in fact he had it extended right across the main high street—try getting that past planning permission these days.) Also it contains quite a lot of iconography celebrating his mother and father's unison of the Houses of York and Lancaster, along with monograms and tributes to some of the early wifes. On the other hand, I'm not sure that Henry VIII went there too often, and we don't actually have much to say about it in its own article. Isn't he also strongly connected with Hampton Court Palace? -- Solipsist 15:07, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)-- Solipsist 19:06, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)- Hampton Court Palace was Cardinal Wolsey's, but Henry seized it and made it his own. -- Emsworth 15:25, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Should it not also mention Nonsuch Palace, which, if I remember correctly, was built by Henry VIII (the article on Nonsuch Palace is very bad (read non-existent - it redirects to a ship!) at the moment). -- ALoan (Talk) 15:30, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)I have created an article for Nonsuch Palace now. -- ALoan (Talk) 16:10, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)- I've added brief references to his gambling habit, to his musical and poetic inclinations and to the constcruction or remodelling of certain buildings, including King's College Chapel, Hampton Court, Nonsuch and Westminster Abbey. -- Emsworth 15:38, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- I've also added the doggerel, as requested. -- Emsworth 15:49, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- I can't help but feel that some of our objections here are a little frivolous compared to all the quality political stuff. Never-the-less we are used to seeing a more rounded picture of Henry VIII, so these things need addressing. If Simon Schama were writing, we would probably have heard of his youth as a 'playboy'. So continuing in the same vein: Didn't H8 also eat for England.
We've covered his interest in music, but he is also famous for his love of sports (I've got at least one reference that claims he was responsible for inventing the 'service' in real tennis).-- Solipsist 16:32, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)- Henry was supposedly too fat to deliver the ball himself, so he had his servants "serve" it up for him to strike. This story sounds somewhat apocryphal to me, so I have not included it. But, having found many references to his involvement in sport, I have included it in the article. -- Emsworth 17:05, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Hampton Court Palace was Cardinal Wolsey's, but Henry seized it and made it his own. -- Emsworth 15:25, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Object - while mentioning the self-proclaimed titles "Lord of Ireland" and King of Ireland in the introductory paragraph - there is no history or background to his Irish endeavours. zoney ███ talk 16:06, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)- English Kings did not actually do anything in Ireland, as far as I know. The Lord Lieutenant actually presided over the Irish Government. Sometimes, even the Lord Lieutenant did not do anything; for example, Henry was a Lord Lieutenant at about the age of four (as mentioned in the article); instead, lesser ministers were left to control the area. Furthermore, I do not include merely self-proclaimed titles; otherwise, I would have referred to Henry as King of France. He was actually the Lord, and later King, of Ireland, both de facto and de jure. -- Emsworth 16:19, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Was it not Henry VIII who got the Irish lords to accept him as King, in return he "officially" gave them the land already owned by them? What a neat scam! As regards "English" kings in Ireland, well, there's the example of King James II and William of Orange for one thing! I suspect there's others who had substantial involvement with Ireland. King John's Castle in Limerick was built by King John the somethingth. zoney ███ talk 13:54, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- From what I have read, he was rather displeased when the Irish "Parliament" attempted to give him the title King. He supposedly claimed that the royal style was none of their concern. In any event, he is said to have proclaimed himself king the next year in any event. -- Emsworth 13:59, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- I withdraw my objection - but I remain unconvinced that the whole Irish situation as regards his reign is covered. Unfortunately I've forgotten a lot of my school history - so I can't help out. By the way, the article doesn't mention the Irish parliament attempting to give him the title King. zoney ███ talk 20:22, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- From what I have read, he was rather displeased when the Irish "Parliament" attempted to give him the title King. He supposedly claimed that the royal style was none of their concern. In any event, he is said to have proclaimed himself king the next year in any event. -- Emsworth 13:59, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Was it not Henry VIII who got the Irish lords to accept him as King, in return he "officially" gave them the land already owned by them? What a neat scam! As regards "English" kings in Ireland, well, there's the example of King James II and William of Orange for one thing! I suspect there's others who had substantial involvement with Ireland. King John's Castle in Limerick was built by King John the somethingth. zoney ███ talk 13:54, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- English Kings did not actually do anything in Ireland, as far as I know. The Lord Lieutenant actually presided over the Irish Government. Sometimes, even the Lord Lieutenant did not do anything; for example, Henry was a Lord Lieutenant at about the age of four (as mentioned in the article); instead, lesser ministers were left to control the area. Furthermore, I do not include merely self-proclaimed titles; otherwise, I would have referred to Henry as King of France. He was actually the Lord, and later King, of Ireland, both de facto and de jure. -- Emsworth 16:19, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Not a formal objection, but shouldn't there be something about the Mary Rose (an article which seems oddly inaccurate - was she really sunk "while in battle with the French"? I thought that her gunports had unadvisedly been opened in choppy conditions for a royal review and she simply foundered. As I understand it, Henry watched her sink) and the Book of Common Prayer ("the only Protestant service to be finished within the lifetime of King Henry VIII"). -- ALoan (Talk) 01:05, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- The Book of Common Prayer should be mentioned in the article on Edward VI, not on the article on Henry VIII. Henry was a Catholic; he did not sanction the Protestant Book. Edward, however, granted it official sanction. -- Emsworth 01:11, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)