Talk:Home counties

Not my home

My home is not in London or the South East so they are not "home" counties for me. I have no objection to people in London calling them that amongst themselves, but it does annoy me when people use the term in the national media. --Cap 17:53, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The Article is quite poor, for a start the Home Counties have always been those counties adjacent with London and not the South East as a whole, and this is common knowledge. There is nothing to suggest the term home counties has any political significance.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.205.89.228 (talk • contribs) 14:26, Oct 2, 2008

"Common knowledge" is not a reliable source! Also a direct border with which London? The City? the former County of London? Greater London? the Greater London Urban Area? There is no one definition and the article explains this, and includes those counties that have been included in the term. Lozleader (talk) 14:42, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

It's hardly going to be the square mile or Central London, it is where the counties of Essex, Surrey, Berkshire, Kent start and Greater London Ends. Those counties that surround London. Counties such as Sussex have never been considered Home Counties, and anyone who thinks Brighton is in the Home Counties is sadly deluded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.205.89.228 (talk • contribs) 14:55, Oct 2, 2008

Sussex seems to have been fairly consistently considered a "Home County", for instance the 1851 Post Office Directory of the Six Home Counties covered Essex, Herts, Kent, Middlesex, Surrey and Sussex. This rather supports the theory that the term was derived from the Home circuit which comprised Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Surrey and Sussex.

Berks Bucks and Herts (and sometimes Hants and Oxon) seem to have crept in later. But as there is no one definition, all we can do is list the variations, with proper references. Incidentally I have discovered an even broader definition, courtesy of the Valuation Office Agency:

• Inner Home Counties: Kent, Surrey, Bucks, Herts and Essex within M25 boundary.
• Outer Home Counties: Kent, Surrey, Sussex (East and West), Hampshire, Berkshire, Oxfordshire, Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire, Essex, the Bournemouth section of Dorset and the City of Cambridge. [1]

Which I suppose ought to be added to the article ;-)

Lozleader (talk) 19:33, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Explanation

Could someone provide a better explanation for the origin of the term? Why "home" counties, are these the counties where the "homes" of the London commuters are to be found? This is not entirely clear from the article. I'm asking because I don't know, and I didn't feel that this gave me the information I was looking for. This article is in fact number one on a Google search, so it should be more informative for the random surfer. 80.203.101.24 28 June 2005 04:03 (UTC)

I finally found the explanation. This is backed up by the Oxford English Dictionary. The train journey/MP explanation might be correct, but the assize circuits predates that and was in fact the original meaning of the term. Eixo 10:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

That OED definition explains what they are, but it doesn't really explain 'why' the term "Home Counties" is applied. I suspect that the origins are lost in the mists of English history, and that there may have been a colloquialism referring to the area as "Home", in the sense of, "the core of England", long before even the reference of the term from the 1600's. It makes sense, roughly, in a geographic way. To the west are the Celtic enclaves of Wales and Cornwall, and to the north, eventually we run into that other Celtic bastion, Scotland. So, I suspect that the term, the idea, goes back much further in history. I'm speculating, of course, but it's not such an outlandish hypothesis. Best regards, theBaron0530

POV

I've moved this from the article because its POV. There are lots of places in the home counties that are neither conservative, prosperous or middle class at any level. MRSC 15:43, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

While what you say is true, it is still doesn't invalidate what you have deleted. I am reinserting an altered less POV version of what you removed Lexy lexy 19:52, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The term Home Counties could be synonymous with a rather conservative, prosperous and upper middle-class attitude to life. It should be noted that some people may find use of the term a sign of a London bias.

Social and political meanings of "Home Counties"

The term Home Counties is often used to describe a social class that supposedly live in this economically successful region - i.e. people who are more fortunate than those in other parts of the UK.

The term can also be used in relation to the politics of the UK - the Home Counties are the Conservative Party's home ground. There is a sharp divide between a mostly Labour Party dominated London and the Home Counties.

I propose that two short paragraphs relating to the above points be written. I don't think the above wording is correct and may submit changes if I think of something better. Does anybody have any views/ improve on my wording?

Spike7

P.S. I hope I haven't opened a "class war!"

As I live in the home counties and agree that it is conservative and a upper class area. That does not mean we are snobs and anyone who thinks that should visit the Home Counties to see what a good place it os

RC

Possible Definition and Explanation?

I'm afraid I can't cite the source for this as it was back early 90's.

Basically the Home Counties were defined as all of the area outside urban London that could be reached within one hour by rail from the mainline terminii of London. Therefore 'MPs could attend a typical day at Westminster and still get home for each night'. It was suggested that living any further from London, the MP would have a central London residence for the weeknights and then return home only at the weekend. The origin of the phrase and definition in this sense was said to the MPs and Westminster staff.

Given it's the area is clearly dependant on the speed and patten of train services, I am unclear as to (how under this definition) where the outer boundaries of the area might have layn or how consumate to county borders (the traditional ones I would assume) they were. For example, the 'one hour travel zone' cuts Kent in half but I always understood the whole of Kent to be "a Home County". No clue was given as to when the definition was first made or whether it became static or fluid. Since the railways have reorganised and upgraded/downgraded numerous times since the 60's, I expect the one hour zone have changed, shrunk, and expanded quite a bit.

Personal I always took the Home Counties to definately include Kent, Sussex (East & West), Surrey, Essex, Herefordshire, Buckinghamshire and Berkshire. The inclusion of Hampshire, Oxfordshire and Bedfordshire was a matter of debate.

--Myfanwy 01:05, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I wonder about Hampshire, where I'm originally from. I wouldn't instinctively include it, but the northeast corner is very Home Counties (and within an hour of London). In doing fact-checking for a magazine in the past, I have come across quite different definitions from authoritative sources (can't remember which I accessed, though), one that included Hampshire but left out Oxfordshire, and another that reversed that. I like the one-hour travel time idea, though it's a bit of a movable feast, as you say. Oh, and I suspect you mean Herts not Herefordshire :)Tarquin Binary 15:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Not sure about the "one hour" thing at all: for example, Coventry and Peterborough can both be reached by train from London in around an hour, and I suspect nobody would seriously argue that these cities are within the Home Counties. 217.155.20.163 (talk) 01:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Isn't London the most liberal area of the UK?

Old Cromwellians. That's why I find the description confusing. 68.110.8.21 03:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a map would be useful?

This has nothing to do with the main debate, but I think a map of the Home Counties would be very helpful; even better if the exact boundaries of London itself were shown in a different color (perhaps white, or whatever colour the land exterior to the Home Counties is shaded).Shanoman 21:30, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Inclusion of Outer London Suburbs..

A more confusing implication for defining the boundary of the Home Counties could be the fact that, as is my interpretation, there are numerous London suburbs that still go by the former county addresses and share the social traits of the commuter belt further out. Any perceptibly wealthy or leafy part of London outside of Inner London could be said to be in the Home Counties, given that the whole of London is realistically a part of South East England (so the two are one and the same). Consider locations such as Richmond (Surrey) and Upminster (Essex), which I at least have always thought are effectively the same as commuter towns that lie just outside London. They are equally as dependant on Inner London as the likes of Billericay and Beaconsfield. WarrenStreet

Richmond and Upminster are in London - hence not in the home counties. Jim Michael (talk) 09:07, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

population

gr london+surry+bucks+herts+essex+kent+berks (basicaly counties bordering gr london+gr london)= 14,485,200 (14.5 million)

population of counties is the total pop. of the 'traditional' county inc. bits that are now UA (eg Oxford in Bucks)

User:Plague of Death < [from me!]

Map

It would be good to have a map in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.243.18.141 (talk • contribs) 16:23, 5 December 2007

I have included a map, although it is not intended to be definitive. It illustrates the counties mentioned in the various definitions. MRSC • Talk 21:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Is there not a map that is more up to date than 1921? Middlesex no longer exists and sussex is not part of the HC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.184.129.92 (talk) 20:29, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

'population of the home counties'

this section contains no verifiable fact, and is based entirely on subjective assumptions. Should be deleted Npmontgomery (talk) 12:11, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Quite agree, and was going to delete it myself.Lozleader (talk) 09:43, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

The beauty of the internet and democracy, the right to disagree Sherry (FitFoxy) Chandler — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.59.47 (talk) 22:22, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

To capitalise 'Home Counties', or not?

Does the expression 'Home Counties' stand to be capitalised, or not? There seems to be confusion on this, as to what the correct style is. Is there a right answer? Colin McLaughlin (talk) 11:46, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Definitely not capitalised in my view, unless it is something like "Home Counties Regiment". Philafrenzy (talk) 12:00, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Agree. Few sources capitalise, and the similar home counties is not capitalised either. BananaBork (talk) 12:33, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Surbiton

Surbiton is wholly within London - and has been continuously since 1 April 1965. That's over 52 years. It's not just administrative; it's served by the London Mayor, the London Fire Brigade, the London Ambulance Service and the Metropolitan Police. No part of London is in the home counties. The point of the sitcom The Good Life is that a London couple are using their garden as though it were a farmer's field in the countryside. If the show were actually set in a rural part of the home counties, it wouldn't be a funny situation. To describe the show, unreferenced, as a typical home counties comedy is bizarre. I've watched most episodes of it and didn't once hear any of the characters describe Surbiton as being in the home counties. If you want an example of a home counties comedy, use one that is actually set there. The fact that some people are unaware of the actual county boundaries or refuse to acknowledge them is irrelevant. Some people refuse to acknowledge Greater Manchester's existence, and claim that its territory is still Lancashire and Cheshire - but we're an encyclopedia so we use facts. For example, Rochdale is indisputably in Greater Manchester and hasn't been in Lancashire for over 43 years. Many people think that Sydney is the capital of Australia, but no encyclopedia would state that it is. Jim Michael (talk) 10:17, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

If you want to know about county boundaries please look at the numerous discussions on wikipedia, or just read some articles. The house was set in a typical town in suburbia, an undefined area that straddles in and out of Greater London. All suburbia is in the Home Counties, which, as said, refer to the traditional counties. Greater London is not a traditional county. making reference to it not really relevant. Incidently, I assume by London you mean Greater London of the 1963 act, which are not quite the same thing. Thank you for taking this to the talk pageRoger 8 Roger (talk) 10:48, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

I know what the actual boundaries are, which is what matters. I've read many articles, including Surbiton, which clearly states that it's in London. The fact that part of suburbia is in London and part of it is outside London doesn't change the fact that all of Surbiton is well within London. Any version of the home counties current definition describes actual counties, not former counties or the boundaries of former counties. Outer London is part of London, not the home counties. London and Greater London are the same thing - and have been since 1965. When definitions or statistics of London are given, it refers to the administrative boundaries, which is also the definition used by many other organisations - including Wikipedia - and is shown on any map made after 1965. To have as the only example of a home counties sitcom a show that isn't set and wasn't filmed there makes no sense. To go further than that and claim that it's a typical home counties sitcom, without any reference in this article or in TGL article, is ridiculous. There are sitcoms which are actually set in the home counties, so it would make more sense to mention one or more of those in this article. I don't know if any of them are widely regarded as 'typical' home counties sitcoms. The area and conditions within the home counties vary massively, from multi-millionaires living in opulent wealth in mansions in rural Surrey to underclass people struggling in severe poverty in decaying, overcrowded houseshares in Margate in which over a dozen unrelated people have to share one toilet. Is there even a widely-accepted 'typical home counties' definition - let alone a widely-accepted portrayal of it? Jim Michael (talk) 11:07, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

This section was about what the public imagine the home counties and the people who live in them to be like, not necessarily what they really are. We all know that the reality is more varied and the poverty of some parts of the home counties is referred to elsewhere in the article. The Good Life was set in "The Avenue", Surbiton, which was clearly chosen for its generic suburban/south east/home counties ring. I would suggest that many viewers thought it was a made up place and I have certainly met people who thought Surbiton was an invention. As for its location, it was formerly in Surrey, one of the home counties, and still has that postal address, despite being within London administratively. The series was filmed in Northwood, formerly in Middlesex. There are numerous places around central London that are in that grey area between London and the home counties. Philafrenzy (talk) 11:42, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

The Spectator make the point about the Leadbetters explicitly here "Margo was a Home Counties Conservative to her fingertips". It's also worth pointing out that it was the Leadbetters next door that were stated to be home counties, not the self-sufficient Goods. Philafrenzy (talk) 12:07, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

The tricky thing is a lot of people still think of counties in terms of the pre-Great London Council Days and thus will see areas like Surbiton as being in Surrey and thus a home county (this would be even more true when the Good Life was first broadcast). Of course this does not make it factually true, but then Home County is quite an abstract concept so perhaps there is room for some leeway. Dunarc (talk) 20:14, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Postal counties were abolished over two decades ago. Postcodes don't fit with actual boundaries: all of the Isle of Wight has PO (Portsmouth) postcodes; Bishop's Stortford has a CM (Chelmsford) postcode. There are no grey areas within London - all of the 32 London boroughs and the City of London are wholly in London. If there are any grey areas those would be the areas that are just outside London, but are part of the same conurbation and are within the M25 - such as Dartford and Epsom - as they are part of London's urban area and metropolitan area.

Suburbia is by its very nature in a grey area between town and country, whatever its administrative, legal or postal status. Philafrenzy (talk) 11:37, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

The article that has recently been added as a ref only states that one character in TGL is typical home counties, which doesn't substantiate the previous claim that the show is typical home counties. As I said, using a London garden for farming is far from typical. Jim Michael (talk) 11:32, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

As mentioned above, it was never claimed that the self-sufficient Goods were typical, it was the conventional Leadbetters that were formerly claimed as typical. Are you clear which characters were the farmers and which not? The claim is no longer made as a result of this discussion. Philafrenzy (talk) 11:37, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Jim Michael, I think you don't get it. If you want to discuss county boundaries there are plenty of other places to do that, but the role of TGL in the home county concept, noted in this article, is not about county boundaries. I welcome your willingness to discuss but you seem to be getting unnecessarily rigid , if not agitated, leading to forking off topic. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 12:05, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Reverted edits

Loughrantobias I know that County of London no longer exists. The map does not show current counties, but the ones before 1965, including Middlesex and County of London. I will therefore re-revert. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:05, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Status of historic counties

It appears that different users have edited this article with different presuppositions about which type of county 'Home Counties' refers to. There are three types: (1) historic counties; (2) Local Government Act "counties"; and (3) "ceremonial counties" (lieutenancy areas). These have never abolished or replaced one another, and their boundaries are often overlapping.

This article should be maintained consistently. The so-called "home counties" are historic counties, so their boundaries are unaffected by changes in local government and lieutenancy.

The case of Middlesex is illustrative: it has existed for over a thousand years as (1) an historic county; (2) from 1889 to 1965 there was also an administrative "county" called Middlesex (which did not cover all of Middlesex); and (3) there has never been a ceremonial county of Middlesex. The Middlesex that was "abolished" in 1965 was only the administrative county that had been created in 1889. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GarethStoat (talk • contribs) 11:52, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

The idea that the historic counties were 'abolished' or 'changed' via the administrative reforms of 1888, 1965 and 1972 is a common though erroneous one. These acts created administrative counties, which have been created, merged, altered or abolished continuously as per the ever-changing needs of local government and the whims of Whitehall bureaucrats. This distinction has been pointed out by numerous government officials down the years:

• The new county boundaries are administrative areas, and will not alter the traditional boundaries of counties, nor is it intended that the loyalties of people living in them will change despite the different names adopted by the new administrative counties. Government statement issued 1st April 1974 and printed in the Times newspaper, confirmed again in 2019 (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/celebrating-the-historic-counties-of-england/celebrating-the-historic-counties-of-england)
• I can confirm that the government still stand by this statement, that the local authority areas and boundaries introduced in 1974 do not alter the traditional boundaries of counties. The 1974 arrangements are entirely administrative, and need not affect long-standing loyalties and affinities. Michael Portillo MP – Minister of State for Local Government – 11th July 1990
• I can confirm that these Acts (1933, 1972) did not specifically abolish traditional counties so traditional counties still exist but no longer for the administration of local government. Department for Communities and Local Government – 22nd August 2006
• The historic English counties are one of the oldest forms of local government in Western Europe. Their roots run deep. And no amount of administrative reshuffling can delete these longstanding and cherished local identities. Eric Pickles, Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, 11th July 2011

There are many other examples, though the point is clear. Stating that historic counties no longer exist at all (and not just for administrative purposes) is both incorrect and directly contradicts repeated statements on the matter by the UK government. WisDom-UK (talk) 11:20, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

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