Talk:Hyder, Alaska

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Law enforcement

Is it true that they use the RCMP and Canadian courts? I find this difficult to believe, given that US law and Canadian law differ substantially on a number of areas. I heard that if law enforcement is needed, they radio to Ketchikan to have an Alaska State Trooper come.

Also, the Post Office isn't the only US Government presence; there are also US Forest Service people there from time to time.

It is true that they primarily use Canadian currency.

Follow-up comment, sorry, I don't really know how I'm supposed to contribute to the discussion in here.

I'm fairly certain that they use US police. A Mountie from Stewart once told me a story of state troopers flying into Stewart, crossing the border into Hyder, arresting someone, then taking him across the border to fly back to Alaska. This is secondhand info, yeah. From what I remember, there were no cops in Hyder--they'd only be sent if something serious happened.

On the subject of schools, the teacher of US history also taught social studies -- the Alaskan government probably paid part of his salary, and they certainly gave a fair bit of money to the school district, but they didn't retain a teacher just for US history. From what I've heard the school built in Hyder was shut down after the number of enrolled students dropped, and now people have to send their children to boarding school.

They do, in fact use the RCMP and the Canadian courts. Through an Alaskan state provided supplement to their salaries, 2 judges in Stewart were educated in certain differences between Canadian constitutional law and American/AK state constitutional law. Civil law remains American as well, although this is not an issue, as the civil doctrine is identical in both countries- Preponderance of the evidence instead of reasonable doubt, Negligence, the reasoble person doctrine. Provided by agreement with the canadiens, Hyder misdemenor crimes are identical to Stewerts. Alaska state misdemenors do not exist in Stewert. A RCMP in Stewert is permitted to arrest US citizens in Hyder for misdemenor charges, and try them in Canadien courts. Felony charges, however are handled by State Troopers brought in, but arrest and holding is allowed to be done by RCMP officers while waiting for the trooper. It's a mix of both legal systems. (Although there really is far less difference then you'd think. Being from Southeast Alaska, as well as a former resident of Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan, a city split between America and Canada, I've been under the jurisdiction of both sets for significant portions of my life.) -AKMask 18:12, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm late to this discussion obviously, but wanted to chime in: This situation (law enforcement) sounds a bit like the Status Of Forces Agreements (SOFA) we have in the Army when US soliders go to train or be stationed in foreign countires. The SOFA spells out who has authority over whom,and for what offenses. In some cases, the sovereign countrys police may have ultimate authority, but in others, a GI is remanded to American authorities for investigation, discipline, etc. (Remember the US fighter pilot that hit the ski gondola cables and killed the people inside in Italy back in the 90s. He was tried by US authorities, per the agreement). Hyder could be a similar situation at the civilian level - i.e. allowing the RCMP as "first responders" and-or to handle minor issues..Having said all that, I cannot find a legitimate source for the authority of the RCMP to cross the border. I'll tag that line, and remove the ref nmber listed (which leads to a rather long write-up of SE Alaska). If anyone has a legit source (not some tourist's website, but an authoritative source), please add it to the refs. Engr105th (talk) 02:35, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The statement in question says, "and calling the police means a Canadian Mountie will respond". The source for this statement is, "the police are of the Mountie variety". The editors here have shown general agreement that they think this source is reliable in this statement. This source is not a "tourist's website", but a book archived by Google. A bot has restored the reference you removed because it was being used elsewhere in the article, but the cn tag is still there. Perhaps you'd like to call the Chamber of Commerce if you are still not convinced that the encyclopedia is being reliable? Unscintillating (talk) 05:33, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Unscintillating: you're absolutely right, that source isn't a tourist website (didn't mean to imply it was; just asking for more authoritative sources) but it is a tourism-travel reference. Police authority across sovereign borders is unusual in the sense this Wiki article implies...Glad the bot restored the ref, though. I didn't notice it referred to other parts of the article (my fault). As far as general agreement on reliability, it looks like at least one other contributor above questioned it also... I looked at the Chamber's website, and I saw info for fire and hospital services, etc, but nothing about any police services provided from Stewart to Hyder. Would like to find out more about it, but calling the Chamber is probably "original research" which isn't allowed under Wiki rules. I'm open to suggestions. Engr105th (talk) 10:00, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OR is a content policy, and content policy applies to the content of Articles. So, yes, you can't call up the chamber and report your findings on the article page. But WP:OR doesn't stop editors from going to local libraries. What we are talking about now is WP:IRS, or WP:Identifying reliable sources, which is not a part of content policy. You've argued that the source I used "might not" be reliable. Your evidence is "Hyder could be a similar situation [to SOFA] at the civilian level". That is just a concern, you've offered no evidence that the source is unreliable. In addition to escalating to WP:RS/N, you could dispell your own concerns with a phone call. Whatever you find out, if I doubt what you say, I can call the chamber myself and get my own version of the story. Or you could do some Google searches and find more sources.

The other point you might argue is in WP:V, that "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources". Given the theory presented by the editors above, there is no police staff in Hyder, but a bar owner can call over to Canada, and if there is a rowdy drunk in their bar, the Mounties will drive across the border and arrest the person for a misdeameanor and that person will be tried under US law in a Canadian court by a Canadian judge. Right now, that theory fails WP:V, so we wouldn't put any of that in the article, but to me it passes the test of reason. It would be interesting to know where the person would be jailed if convicted. But where is there anything exceptional? Unscintillating (talk) 21:21, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Another place to look is based on the above statement that payments to the Canadian judges are provided by the state. You might look in site:state.ak.us or site:alaska.gov for "Hyder". Unscintillating (talk) 21:32, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, good info...and Thanks! I think Wiki has a direct message system - it did at one time - and I'll fire you a few thoughts if I can figure out the system. I don't want to clutter the talk page with speculation.. I may also contact the Chamber via email and see if they have any docs they'd be willing to post on that website...I don't really have a problem with the Wiki article either way,but it sure struck me funny. Travelers researching the area might also want the "straight dope" on this. Thnx again, Engr105th (talk) 04:49, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A section of this article in the Public safety section claimed that an RCMP might come into town, presumably on law enforcement duties.

"The nearest policing is sometimes provided by stopovers by the Stewart Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) Detachment from the Canadian side.^[1]"

It was edited out, the USA is a sovereign country as much as Canada is. Alaska State Troopers from Ketchikan might very well visit Stewart for pleasure, just as RCMP from Stewart might visit Hyder for the same reasons on their off duty hours.

The following article explains that In a 2004 incident, four American police cruisers who did not radio ahead to CBSA border station officers at Niagara Falls, Ontario who were in pursuit of a stolen pickup truck that fled to Canada were instructed to return to the USA. The driver of the stolen vehicle hit a female bystander exiting from her parked car on the Ontario side of the falls. Niagara Regional Police arrested a suspect after a brief exchange of gun fire with and charged him with impaired driving causing bodily harm and attempted murder of a police officer. It sparked a minor diplomatic incident.

-- Diplomats look into cross-border police chase http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/diplomats-look-into-cross-border-police-chase/article994063/ 2607:FEA8:1100:94:DDE8:EB0F:52B7:E89D (talk) 23:37, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The edit in question removed sourced material based on a personal opinion. Wikipedia is not a process to resolve personal opinions, so we defer to sources, rightly or wrongly. In this case, the sources all agree. While this sourcing is not sufficient to overcome the argument of an urban legend, there is not any evidence here of an urban legend, rather a belief that international borders are inviolate and invariable. The opinion is not new from the arguments already presented above, so I suggest you read the above discussion. Meanwhile, I've added another reference to the disputed comment. Regards, Unscintillating (talk) 08:01, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The 2 sources being used didn't even talk about the subject, so I removed them. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:30, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And then I removed them again. If the material being proffered isn't in the sources, they shouldn't be placed where it appears they're confirming what is being claimed. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:30, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And again. Would you please explain why you keep restoring them when they don't say what is being claimed? Niteshift36 (talk) 04:40, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For those interested in what is going on here, I have posted on my talk page. I have also made a request for additional editors to become involved. Unscintillating (talk) 06:11, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This should be discussed here. That's where editors interested in editing this page expect to find discussions about it. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:29, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There is ten years of discussion here. The points I've made on my talk page draw attention to reasons other than improving the encyclopedia for your being here. I've invited other editors, but none have come, so currently there is no concensus for your removal of sources. Unscintillating (talk) 00:42, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There's no consensus for inclusion of material that is being presented falsely. I haven't even removed the material. I removed the sources that don't support it. Can you address the specific question: How do those sources support the material? Niteshift36 (talk) 00:47, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Your argument is that I falsified a reference. This is a behavioural issue, not a content issue such as can be discussed on a talk page. We already know from my comments on my talk page why you are here. Unscintillating (talk) 23:46, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong. I didn't say you falsified them. You're restoring sources that don't support the material. That's vandalism, not lying. You can incorrectly say AVOIDYOU all you want, it doesn't apply here. Either explain why the sources that don't address the topic belong or stop restoring them. It's simple and required by WP:V. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:35, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Your specific initial post here is, "The 2 sources being used didn't even talk about the subject". Your responses have been unable to defend your initial post by discussing the sources you want to remove, and your responses have yet to show any attention to the ten years of discussion above. Instead your most recent response repeats the word "vandalism" which appeared in your last edit summary. Vandalism is a behavioural argument, and this talk page is not a place to discuss behavioural arguments. As per my post on my talk page, we know why you are here. Unscintillating (talk) 02:45, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I know what I said in my edit summary and I've repeatedly said it: The sources don't support the claim. How you can say that I haven't defended my initial post. The sources don't even talk about the RCMP, let alone support the claim. There's nothing to "defend". It's not there. Have you even read the sources? As for your "10 years of discussion"......of course I read it. I read it enough to see that 10 years ago, an editor posted and one responded..... then nobody discussed a thing for SIX YEARS. Then a few more posts and no discussion for FOUR MORE YEARS. So calling it "10 years of discussion" is really a bit misleading. When it was revived, another editor wanted it removed and you've been the only one opposing it. Yes, I've used the word vandalism and I stand by it. When you've been informed that the sources don't support the data and restore it, that's vandalism. And no, that's not a "behavioral argument". Removing vandalism is an exception to the 3RR. Behavioral issues wouldn't be an exception. Once again, I'll ask you directly: Have you read the sources and where does it say that the RCMP provides law enforcement services in Hyder? Niteshift36 (talk) 02:58, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Your hypothesis is that the sources, "didn't even talk about the subject". Your demand is that I falsify your argument. But I have no such burden, and you've not made the case that there is any basis for the claim. No editor has supported your view. Your approach of demanding, shouting, and threatening does not IMO improve the strength of your argument. Unscintillating (talk) 04:17, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There's not "hypothesis". I'm not speculating that the sources don't talk about the subject of law enfrocement. I read them. It is FACT, not a theory. Actually, 2607:FEA8:1100:94:DDE8:EB0F:52B7:E89D does support it and, as you see below, another experienced user is supporting it. What is absent here is anyone else supporting your position. I haven't threatened you at all. I did capitalize a few words for emphasis, but I guess if you want to call that "shouting" you can. You still have not answered the basic question: Have you read the sources and where does it say that the RCMP provides law enforcement services in Hyder? Niteshift36 (talk) 13:34, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The source in question only says that the Canadian Mounties "occasionally pop in to say hello"- i.e. social visits. There is no mention of actual law enforcement in that source. I agree that this source is unsuitable for verifying this claim. Reyk _YO! 06:37, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Reyk. I was led here because Unscintillating was canvassing elsewhere; this rather ridiculous and exasperating discussion, where a statement in the article is so obviously not proven in the reference, is typical of the editor's MO, which is to wikilawyer in a way that bears no relationship to what's happening in the article or the discussion. It is ridiculously counterproductive. Drmies (talk) 15:11, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Here we go again with "the reference", emphasis on "the". Somewhere in my mountain of books is one I skimmed through recently which claims otherwise. It also states that traffic on the 37A has to stop for Canadian Customs in both directions, which contradicts claims made in multiple articles. I didn't bother to jot down details, because if I did that every time merely for the benefit of other Wikipedians who are evidently unable/unwilling to do research, I'd never get anything accomplished for myself. Since this discussion has reached such ridiculous levels, I'll try to make an effort to dig it up. However, as Wikipedia is already so far gone in the direction of being a pathetic exercise in cherry-picking sources and showing zero good faith towards anything without a URL attached, I wonder if it's really worth the bother. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 05:04, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's a nice rant, but a little light on truth. WP:IKNOWIT is usually not persuasive. "Somewhere" isn't a verifiable source. Since Verifiability is on of the basic tenants here, it's not really cherry-picking to remove something that isn't supported by a reliable source, even one without a URL attached. Other Wikipedians ARE willing and able to do research.... and none of the reliable sources I found show that the RCMP routinely provides law enforcement services to Hyder. Even being stopped for customs wouldn't count, since that activity is taking place outside of Hyder and certainly not for the benefit of the residents. Removing unsourced information isn't a lack of good faith, but claiming that others didn't do any research is. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:47, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article has been mentioned at WT:Editing policy, diff. Unscintillating (talk) 03:56, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Already closed as off-topic. I started a new thread at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Issue with sourcing at Hyder, Alaska. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 07:05, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As it should have been closed. That isn't a noticeboard. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:23, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For those who might want to pursue this - see the link here https://www.uschamber.com/co/chambers/alaska/hyder Jokem (talk) 02:52, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-buzz/alaska-town-hyder-mostly-canadian-173020232.html

Hmmm

Not sure, good questions though Jarfingle 07:07, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Time Zone?

A couple of places in the article text mention that Hyder uses "Canadian time," which presumably refers to Pacific Standard/Daylight Time, in line with most of British Columbia. However, the infobox says that it is in AKST/AKDT. Should the infobox be changed to PST/PDT? Lincmad (talk) 22:59, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This ref and this ref document that Hyder is on AKST/AKDT. In any case don't "presume", find a reliable source. The way I read this is that the official time for Hyder is ignored by most of the residents. Maybe there is some way to augment the infobox to show both. Unscintillating (talk) 09:27, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Demographics: Median Income figures are fishy

I don't know what the correct numbers are, but the numbers given in the Demographics section for median income are mathematically impossible without some serious legerdemain. The median income per household should not be lower than the median incomes for both men and women. Lincmad (talk) 23:06, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Another fact check

From the article:

Hyder has some notoriety as the place where people become "Hyderized." Two of the town's bars issue certifications to patrons of being "Hyderized" if the patron consumes a shot of 150 proof (75% alcohol) Everclear.

Apparently, the Canadian influence extends here, too. If I'm not mistaken, Alaska's liquor laws were amended years ago to specifically prohibit bars from serving liquors with such high alcohol content.137.229.65.159 (talk) 02:01, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

250 Area Code

Does Hyder's use of the 250 area code mean that calls between it and other parts of the US are classified as international calls and billed accordingly, while calls to Canada would be classified as domestic calls? XinaNicole (talk) 05:51, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It would be interesting to see a source that explains the practical details in the specific case, but I expect that anyone reading this could get a phone number in Stewart. Unscintillating (talk) 11:06, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Answer: The rate centre is a Telus serviced ILEC, with the CO located in Stewart, BC. http://localcallingguide.com/lca_exch.php?exch=017550 Check out the seldom asked questions of the Local Calling Guide, http://localcallingguide.com/saq.php. Port Roberts, Washington once shared a rate centre serviced by BCTel (now Telus) 2607:FEA8:1100:94:DDE8:EB0F:52B7:E89D (talk) 01:19, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Contradiction: southernmost city in Alaska

As of the timestamp in this signature, both the articles Adak, Alaska and this one (Hyder, Alaska) claim that their subject is the southernmost city in Alaska. They can't both be the southernmost. I would say given that Hyder's latitude is 55 degrees north and Adak's latitude is 51 degrees north, Adak has the better claim.--Captain Breakfast (talk) 13:28, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'll correct that on both pages. Hyder is the easternmost. Adak is the southernmost. Although Adak is a more recent settlement, I'm not sure how Hyder was ever mistaken, since nearby communities of Ketchikan, Hydaburg and Metlakatla are all further south. It can claim, however, to be the southernmost community in Alaska that can be reached by car (as opposed to boat/ferry or plane). DJ Jones74 (talk) 03:32, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Community Information for Hyder Alaska

When I clicked this link, it went nuts and Norton gave me a warning. Jokem (talk) 04:41, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for catching that. It's a malware domain squatter now. I deleted it from External links and changed the citation reference to the Wayback Machine with url-status=usurped so the current version won't show up in citations. --Closeapple (talk) 21:03, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hyderized

When I was in Alaska Everclear was 190 proof. In fact, it has been 190 proof everywhere I have been. Jokem (talk) 23:49, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttp://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-buzz/alaska-town-hyder-mostly-canadian-173020232.html

[1]