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See also: Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy/redirects, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Redirect, and Wikipedia:Article wizard/version1/Redirect


Deprecation of redirecting the talk page of a mainspace redirect

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A talk page is just a regular page and can therefore also be a redirect. This is sometimes done when turning a page into a redirect and always done when moving a page since that also moves its talk page. Doing this during a move is fine in my opinion but in almost every other case, redirecting a talk page is a bad practice that should be discouraged. The reason is that if someone retargets one of the redirects but forgets to retarget the other, editors who wish to discuss the redirect will do so at the wrong place. Redirecting the talk page also provides no benefit in comparison with {{talk page of redirect}} which already acts like a soft redirect that can update itself when its page is retargeted. So, my proposal is that we add this to WP:R or WP:TALK:

The talk page of a mainspace redirect should not be redirected unless that was the result of a page move or as specified in WP:TALKCENT. In all other cases, {{talk page of redirect}} should be used instead.

Otherwise we end up with cases like Acts of God (book) where the page itself is a redirect to Acts of God (disambiguation) but its talk page redirected to Talk:Acts of God (novel) before I fixed it. Note that the utility of talk page redirects is much higher in other namespaces. Someone who looks up WT:R probably wants to end up here instead of discussing the redirect itself. So those should be allowed but people should still remember to keep them synced up (not likely that WP:R will ever change but other shortcuts might). I'd also be open to the idea of having a bot sync up such redirects automatically. Nickps (talk) 13:31, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging participants of the previous discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Talk_page_guidelines/Archive_8#Are_redirect_talk_pages_also_redirected?: @Aristophanes68, Thryduulf, Johnuniq, Robertgreer, Flatscan, Redrose64, and Lolifofo. Nickps (talk) 13:34, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also @Jameboy and Uanfala from Wikipedia_talk:Redirect/Archive_2018#Talk_page_of_redirects Nickps (talk) 13:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I thought about it again and I'm going about this the wrong way. I'll just ask at WP:BOTR first and if it gets declined then we should consider this. But, if someone else thinks that the change I proposed above is worth making anyway, they are free to pick this up and even open an RfC. Nickps (talk) 23:08, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, here goes nothing: Wikipedia:Bot requests § Bot to sync talk page redirects with their corresponding page. Nickps (talk) 23:44, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I vaguely recall some cases where a talk page was kept so that its history was retained. That is, the talk discussion had some possibly useful information regarding the now-redirected associated page? Johnuniq (talk) 04:03, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I got pinged, and am here to vote keep for Inclusionism. Deleting, moving, shrinking articles makes some sense to me but I'm a huge proponent of keeping talk pages. I like Wikipedia queries to go somewhere useful, and if I end up on a page that doesn't exist, but that I expect to exist, I would like the talk page to already exist explaining why. Mathiastck (talk) 20:52, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Subtopic in lead: use targeted or untargeted redirect?

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If a subtopic is mentioned in the lead of a page of a larger topic, is there guidance on whether the redirect for the subtopic should be:

  • Targeted to a specific section on the page related to the subtopic
  • Untargeted, where context of the subtopic's relation to the larger topic is introduced in the lead

Some examples are:

—Bagumba (talk) 05:08, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about any policy, guidance, or essay that answers this specific question. My answer would be to think about where the reader would like to be redirected to and point to that. An easy example is if the subject of the redirect is not mentioned in the lead. In that case, it seems pretty clear to me, you'd redirect to the section where the subject is mentioned. - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 15:48, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would think that if there is meaningful mention in the lead, then being redirect to the top would be preferable to being dropped in the middle of a page, often with no immediate context of where and why you ended up here. —Bagumba (talk) 16:56, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Linking to a section from a redirect creates more WP:ASTONISHMENT than linking to the top of an article where the linked term is mentioned (ideally in bold). The first two examples get this right. The third is a little confounding but I can't think of a way to improve it so would advocate for leaving it as it is. ~Kvng (talk) 19:20, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Trouble making a quasi-external soft redirect

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I'd like to make WP:Wikimedia Design Style Guide point to https://design.wikimedia.org/style-guide, but I don't know of any prefix that goes to design.wikimedia.org. How can I achieve this? Sdkb talk 21:52, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't it redirect to https://doc.wikimedia.org/codex/latest/ since the Design Style Guide will soon be deprecated? voorts (talk/contributions) 22:09, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I didn't realize the style guide is being deprecated. Yes, that seems like a better target. But the same question still applies. Sdkb talk 22:52, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Judging by m:Interwiki map, it looks like [[wmdoc:]] is the interwiki code for doc.wikimedia.org, so you could potentially do something like {{soft redirect|wmdoc:codex/latest}}. All the best, ‍—‍a smart kitten[meow] 23:34, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That worked; thanks! Sdkb talk 04:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Redirect § Unclear talk page scopes

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 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Redirect § Unclear talk page scopes. Sdkb talk 21:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination for deletion of Template:R to sports team

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Template:R to sports team has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:26, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination for deletion of Template:R from gap in series

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Template:R from gap in series has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:29, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question on redirects with short descriptions

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I have noticed that there are books (often novels) with a main space article, and the sequels to the books do not have their own articles, but rather are mentioned in a section, often named "Sequels". The redirects for the sequels often redirect to the section.

The problem is, when the name of a sequel is typed into the search Wikipedia field, what comes up prior to hitting Enter and invoking the redirect is the short description of the main space article. It would be ideal if redirects were allowed to have short descriptions that would override the main space article short descriptions in such circumstances.

So for example, we have a novel Argentina Wanderings (1971) by Juan Smith. In the Sequel section are listed novels Brazil Wanderings (1972) and Chile Wanderings (1973). When we search for Chile Wanderings we get "Argentina Wanderings 1971 novel by Juan Smith" displayed before we hit enter. Ideally we should get "Chile Wanderings 1973 novel by Juan Smith". The redirect would then function the same.

What do you think? Is there already such functionality via a different means that I don't know about? If this is not the place to propose this where would be the right place?

Thanks Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 15:51, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please give real examples. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:54, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gave one to Liu1126 below. Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 21:11, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The pseudo-short description I'm seeing is "redirect to [target article]". In what context is the SD of the target article shown instead? I assume you are using the Visual Editor and start typing a link in the Wikipedia section. When I do this for an example redirect "Billi Bruno", I see suggestions of "According to Jim / American comedy television series" and "Billi Bruno / redirect to According to Jim". This doesn't always work: if I try "Aaron Weiss" I just get a list of irrelevant people with similar names. Are we talking about the same feature? Certes (talk) 17:32, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think what Tfdavisatsnetnet is asking about is similar to redirects from songs to an album. For example, when I enter "Above the Law (Barbra Streisand song)" into the search box, the top result displays as "Guilty Pleasures (Barbra Streisand album)" and "2005 studio album by Barbra Streisand". I think the suggestion is whether it might be possible for the redirect to display something different. older ≠ wiser 17:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are correct, though the song/album relationship is a bit too fluid to benefit from my proposal (a song can be on multiple albums). Liu1126 has a better example below. Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 21:14, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Best example

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I think what you mean is when you type a redirect into the search bar (e.g. Mithridates de differentis linguis), the target page shows up in the dropdown (in this case, Conrad Gessner)? What happens when a redirect is searched for depends on the skin. In skins that do show short descriptions (Vector 2022 and Minevra Neue), when a redirect title is typed into the search bar, only the target article shows up in the dropdown. Even if a short description is added, the dropdown just won't display the redirect page. In the other skins (Vector legacy, MonoBook, Timeless), the redirect does show up, but those skins don't display the short description.
It might be possible to customise this by editing your own CSS and JS files (I'm saying "might" because I've never seen a user script that manipulates the search elements), but if you want to make it a sitewide standard (regardless of whether it would take a simple edit to MediaWiki:Common.css or a rewrite by the devs at server side), it might be better to start an RFC somewhere more visible, like WP:VPT. Liu1126 (talk) 17:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is what I mean, and that is a great example. I am arguing that a redirect of "Mithridates de differentis linguis" that reads
{short description|1555 work by Conrad Gessner} (note: I removed the second brackets for rendering)
"#REDIRECT Conrad Gessner#List of selected publications"
would be superior to just the second line alone, provided that the Skin is set to substitute the proposed short description of the redirect ('1555 work by Conrad Gessner') for that of the article ('Swiss physician, bibliographer and naturalist (1516–1565)') - after all, Mithridates de differentis linguis is not a Swiss physician. It should be a site-wide standard. Let me know what you think! I will look into WP:VPT (but I will hold off from making a proposal for a few days as the feedback comes in here), thanks! Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 21:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The {{short description}} can't go above the #REDIRECT [[...]] as the redirection only works if the #redirect keyword is the very first thing in the page source. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:37, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is the way it is now. I am proposing that the logic be changed to allow it. BTW I am currently looking through the VLP archives to see if this has been proposed before.Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 22:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's nothing that we, as English Wikipedia, can change. It's part of the MediaWiki software, and to alter that, you need to go through phabricator:. They will be wanting a very strong reason to change behaviour that has existed in that form for over 23 years - since at least April 2001, which is the very early days of Wikipedia. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:22, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notice of discussion at Talk:Popverse#Redirect templates

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Information icon There is currently a discussion at Talk:Popverse regarding the use of {{Avoided double redirect}} in correlation to a miscapitalization redirect pointing to the same entry. The thread is Redirect templates. The discussion is about the topic Popverse. Thank you. Trailblazer101 (talk) 23:57, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The issue is the "fixing" of correct piped links by making them redirects. That seems at odds with the mentioned: Wikipedia:If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Before I start a new discussion, where was this discussed earlier? The Banner talk 13:33, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The most recent discussion was Wikipedia talk:Redirect/Archive 2023#NOTBROKEN needs to be moderated. older ≠ wiser 13:43, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm, I took part in that discussion. The Banner talk 16:07, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I support starting a new discussion, coming from an inclusionist perspective. Mathiastck (talk) 01:20, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not quite sure what the OP is suggesting, but I very strongly agree with the consensus in the previous discussion that replacing [[redirect]] with [[target|redirect]] is something that should not be done. Thryduulf (talk) 11:39, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree with that consensus.
I think the OP was about people changing [[target|redirect]] to [[redirect]]. I think I've seen some consensus that such changes should generally not be done as the only reason for an edit but should instead be done alongside a more substantive edit. Mgp28 (talk) 12:30, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As well as I know it, an important reason to use the redirect is that it might be worth its own article someday. For the [[target|redirect]] case, one should consider the possibility of a new article, and which one should be used. I suspect most often it should be [[redirect]], but maybe not always. Gah4 (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Over the past few weeks I've been removing piped links using User:Nardog/Unpipe. In all this work I've had one objection that doing so may create a situation where there are multiple links pointing to the same target, potentially some using one redirect and some using another and some direct. The inconvenience this poses for readers is that their browser can't accurately track which articles they've visited and change blue links to purple appropriately. I don't see this discussed in WP:NOTBROKEN but it does seem to be a valid concern. I have been addressing this by eliminating unnecessary duplicate links and editing the article to use consistent terminology and thus consistent linking. ~Kvng (talk) 14:59, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, but as above, link names should consider the idea of a possible new page replacing the redirect. I can imagine, though maybe not think of an example, where one might use the redirect, and one not. The context of the links could be different in a way not so obvious to me right now. Gah4 (talk) 19:51, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I frequently run across examples of this. I'll try to remember to pop back here and update next time I run across one. An unpiped link is more robust in terms of WP:ASTONISH and general maintenance this is probably a more important concern than the link tracking. ~Kvng (talk) 15:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That didn't take long. This edit replaces a piped link with Computer Music Melodian which has potential as a stand-alone article. ~Kvng (talk) 15:39, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template redirect categories

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Are there any redirect categories for specifically intra-template-namespace redirects? Tule-hog (talk) 09:16, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(It seems what I was looking for was {R from template shortcut}, but I suppose the question still stands!) Tule-hog (talk) 22:22, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Redirects in hatnotes

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You are invited to a discussion about the use of redirects in hatnotes at Wikipedia talk:Hatnote#Redirects in hatnotes again. Thryduulf (talk) 16:41, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An input request

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In context to WP:BLANKANDREDIRECT, an input request has been made at Wikipedia talk:Merging#Any rules of thumb?. Bookku (talk) 09:36, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New rcat

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{{R from word reorder}}

was split from {{R from modification}}. It doesn't have a unique category and it isn't in the template index yet. Hyphenation Expert (talk) 22:01, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've redirected it to {{R from modification}}. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:04, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've posted on template talk. @Hyphenation Expert, in the future, you should inform the editor who created the template that you're starting a discussion about it. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:18, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

on interpretations of the blar section

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for a while now, wp:blar has been interpreted at least in rfd as "undiscussed blars must be restored and taken to afd", with few regards to its content or why it was blar'd. while that's obviously not what it means every time (as always, it's on a case-by-case basis), i've been feeling that the "such as" has to do a little too much legwork to imply that there's more than one option

with that in mind, opinions on naming two or more examples, with something like "...other methods of dispute resolution should be used, such as nominating the article for Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion or restoring the article and nominating it for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion."? cogsan (nag me) (stalk me) 23:39, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Encouraging BLARs to be nominated at RfD is exactly the opposite of what we should be doing, they already come here far too often. The only circumstances in which RfD should be deleting article content that has not been removed with explicit consensus is when that content would be speedily deletable if restored. The "such as" means that AfD is not required in every situation (e.g. talk page or wikiproject discussion is sometimes fine), it does not mean RfD is a suitable venue. Thryduulf (talk) 00:17, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per... that one discussion, i'll also disagree with this. for the most part, anyway, case-by-case and all. a blar either not being properly discussed, or being undiscussed entirely, is one part of it. the content it had being unsourced or not properly sourced cruft (as was the case there) is the big issue, that i feel most of your restore votes deliberately ignore. i, at least, trust the people in rfd to be able to look at the history of a blar and determine whether or not its sources (if any were presented) were usable. in the cases of the list of strogg in quake 2 (linked below) and dcvd, for example, they... really weren't. frankly, i'm pretty sure that list would have been bad enough to warrant a specific exception for a7's "not for software" deal at this point
this doesn't mean there's not a chance that the content was usable, or even downright good, or that there's coverage proceeding the blar or that the blarrer (that's a word, right?) and everyone else just missed until a discussion happened, but as i'm almost tired of seeing, some cases just aren't that. on the chance that they are, nice, but while this might be my pessimism talking, those tend to be the exception to the norm in rfd
also, i still have no idea why you keep bringing the "blars should only pop up in rfd if they meet csd" thing up. it was already argued against based on your reason for it being a misreading (coincidentally the exact misreading this discussion is about), the thing that was misread mentioning nothing about speedy deletion or the criteria for it, or being a criterion for anything, and your only argument against that being... bringing it up again later like tavix and i never questioned it cogsan (nag me) (stalk me) 02:29, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Much of what you are saying doesn't make sense, and much of the rest of it is bizarrely and/or plain wrong - particularly you are misinterpreting my comments about CSD in the same way I had to correct you about more than once in the last discussion. Whether something is "cruft", whether sources are or are not reliable, are discussions of article content that belong in the venues for discussion of article content: AfD, talk pages, etc. not RfD. You may trust RfD participants to undertake research that is not relevant to RfD and that everyone who would comment on an AfD for the article will know it is beign discussed at RfD is endearing but naiive and/or wrong. Thryduulf (talk) 02:40, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
if i'm misinterpreting your comments about csd, it's because you took over a month to explain them in a coherent way (that is, one that didn't somehow equate rfd to reversion and speedy deletion), and still ended up being "plain wrong" per the policies you yourself cited. i also said nothing about people at afd knowing that something would be discussed at rfd, where did you get that? cogsan (nag me) (stalk me) 11:22, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When you actually think (rather than just reading the words of policy without doing so) its very simple: The purpose of requiring deletion of articles to be discussed at AfD is so that both those involved with the article, and those who are interested in and/or knowledgeable about the article and/or its subject know that it has been nominated for deletion. This is done because the community has decided that deletion without this notice is not reasonable. If articles are BLARed then discussed at RfD then only those involved with the article know that the subject has been nominated for deletion, those who watch AfD (and these days also article alerts and deletion sorting lists) because they have opinions about the deletion of articles do not know that an article has been nominated for deletion.
Content that meets a speedy deletion criterion is an exception to this because notification is not required. Content that has previously been discussed is an exception because the consensus discussion happened previously. Thryduulf (talk) 11:38, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
this requires that rfd somehow have no one who knows anything about article content, how blars work, how rfd nominations and twinkle work, pop culture references old enough to drink, or that more than one thing can be in rfd at a time, that that 2021 consensus shown in wp:blar be absolute and not "yeah that's usually a good idea" (see the use of "most" in wp:blar), and that that consensus not currently be in the process of being challenged cogsan (nag me) (stalk me) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It actually requires none of those things. Whether people at RfD are competent in certain topic area is irrelevant, what matters is that the people who are interested in/knowledgeable about the topic area know that article content is being discussed. They know that when articles are discussed at AfD, they don't know that when a redirect is at RfD. Thryduulf (talk) 12:26, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
problem: nominating something for rfd leaves evidence on the edit history (and thus the watchlist of anyone watching it), twinkle has the option to notify the original creator and/or target talk page, you can just ping someone else involved and presumably knowledgeable, and probably sends a pigeon out to notify you personally (i can't verify this one, i live in a fictional location) cogsan (nag me) (stalk me) 13:08, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It notifies those people that a redirect is being discussed, it notifies nobody that article content is being discussed. It notifies nobody who watches AfDs, the AfD section of article alerts, deletion sorting lists (this one isn't absolute but very occasionally RfDs get added whereas almost all AfDs do), etc. Thryduulf (talk) 14:25, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
...yes. that's the point. because it's at rfd. because blars are redirects. and redirects can have edit histories. which any voter worth their salt will check cogsan (nag me) (stalk me) 14:28, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Except BLARs are not redirects, they are blanked articles. The edit history isn't the issue, it's the deletion of article content. Thryduulf (talk) 15:10, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
they're redirects with history, see good ol' wp:blar cogsan (nag me) (stalk me) 15:20, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That history is an article. That article was blanked without consensus. Therefore it should be restored and discussed as the article it is per WP:BLAR, WP:BRD etc. Thryduulf (talk) 16:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
that's not what either of them say. wp:brd-not explicitly states that brd isn't a reason to revert cogsan (nag me) (stalk me) 17:45, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cogsan, I disagree with your premise. "Undiscussed blars must be restored and taken to afd" has never enjoyed consensus at RfD. I would think that Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 September 17#List of Strogg in Quake II would have disavowed you of that idea. That said, I don't think WP:BLAR needs any changes. If an editor blanks and redirects an article and another editor sees it right away disagrees with the blank-and-redirection, the best option is to restore the article and have it taken to AfD. The ones we usually see at RfD don't really make sense in the context you're quoting because there is no ongoing disagreement between editors on whether or not the page should be an article or not. If a page was redirected in 2009 and it's just now coming to RfD, it's been a redirect for a long time and should be evaluated as such. If the underlying content looks like it may be notable, restore it. If not, delete it. -- Tavix (talk) 00:45, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i didn't say i thought that, i said it tended to be interpreted that way. i wouldn't turn to the dark side this fast, even if the dark side has cookies cogsan (nag me) (stalk me) 00:51, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know you don't think that, but even "tends to be interpreted that way" gives way too much credence to a vocal minority. -- Tavix (talk) 00:56, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
fair lol. still not a fan of how easy it is for said vocal minority to start discussions spanning 2 months that end up amounting to having missed two words in a paragraph, but eh cogsan (nag me) (stalk me) 01:01, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That change to BLAR would contradict WP:ATD-R, which states that contested BLARs should be discussed on talk or at AfD. This reflects consensus from 2018 and 2021 RfCs. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:46, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
eh? that one also only provides restoring and sending to afd as an example (see the use of "include"). this is the exact kind of case this is about cogsan (nag me) (stalk me) 00:53, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I interpret the Quake discussions as exceptions to the rule per WP:BURO , given the ages of the redirects and their complete lack of encyclopedic content. The general rule that things should go to AfD holds in most cases and we should not muddy the waters by affirmatively stating that RfD might be appropriate. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:58, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
then shouldn't it say that afd is usually the way to go, as opposed to only naming it as an option? i'm starting to think that the way it's currently written doesn't look good for either side cogsan (nag me) (stalk me) 01:05, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll start a discussion to do so at WT:DELETE. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion started. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:26, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
nice-a. gonna dip my toes there when i've had my sleep cogsan (nag me) (stalk me) 02:30, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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