Talk:Somalia

Somalia showed as controlling Somaliland

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Somalia_(orthographic_projection).svg#mw-jump-to-license

The picture has been locked by an administrator, leaving it stuck in a state that does not accurately represent de-facto territory. I would strongly suggest Somalia be shown with its de-facto borders, not de jure borders, per standard border guidelines. ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 18:30, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Somaliland de-facto in the map used is much larger than the reality on the ground. Somaliland doesn't control 40% of its claim territory. SSC-Khatumo is a new unionist administration controls that 40% after 13 years of struggle against Somaliland and its ambition to seek independence based on colonial borders. Meaning even the new replaced map is not accurate. We need a map that shows the real size of the de facto entity while showing Somalia with its SSC-Khatumo. If that is not available, we can for now use the de jure map of Somalia, which reflects the recognised borders of Somalia. Anwar8989 (talk) 08:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok so a few things

• Firstly, Somalilands claimed borders vs it's controlled territories have always being fairly vague because of the dispute involving it and Puntland state borrders. It would be highly impractical to constantly adjust the map based on Los Anod conflict territorial gains and loses, especially since the conflict has been plagued with poor coverage by third party organisations, meaning accurate battle lines are difficult to draw anyway.

To explain why Somaliland qualifies for being mentioned on the map, let's look at two examples which overlap here:

• File:Morocco_(orthographic_projection,_WS_claimed).svg (Morocco map): On this map, despite Western Sahara controlling very little of what they claim, many states do not recognise Moroccan ownership of it, and so the entire Western Sahara is not included as being undisputably part of Morocco.
• File:CHN_orthographic.svg (China map): The Indian claim on this map is an example of a claim not being recognised by many other states other than itself, but is included anyway.

Other examples would include Guyana Essequibo being claimed by Venezuela, and Northern Cyprus being claimed but not shown as controlled on the map of Cyprus despite being otherwise unrecognised by anyone.

Hopefully this is a good enough explanation as to why it should be changed for you. ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 13:33, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

The conflict was not only over a city, it was over a territory that makes 40% of territories claimed by Somaliland. Now the region has its own administration which is fully independent from Somaliland. Also who would cover a war in non recognised entity that has barely any influence on the world. I think Somaliland needs a new map that shows its true borders, which can be easily constructed. Khatumo SSC is longer disputed, it is endorsed by both Puntland as independent state as well as the Federal government.

Looking at Morocco, Western Sahara is actually mostly controlled by Morocco, if we are keen on sharing accurate information, those maps should change too. I would advise on making new maps that shows the true uncontrolled size of Somaliland rather then sharing inaccurate information. I would go no for the current new map. Anwar8989 (talk) 19:00, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for late response

I still believe that the map should contain Somaliland, per my statement above. Not too sure on the guidelines on mapping, but if there isn't any, this could be the point to create one.In regards to creating maps, that can also be debated either way. Still, I am In favour of reverting the map to show Somaliland. Perhaps we should ask for a third opinion? ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 15:57, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi both, please allow me to join you in the conversation. I think both of you have a valid point. I am more in favour of creating a new map that reflects the real controlled territories of Somaliland rather than reverting to this old wrong map. We could leave this meanwhile. So, I would so no to the old map and yes for better replacement. SawsanJojo (talk) 18:28, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

RFC discussion

Should the current map of Somalia on this page, which does not show the areas controlled by Somaliland be replaced? If so, in what way?

• Option 1: Keep current map
• Option 2: Replace current map but with a map only highlighting rough boundaries of the areas de facto controlled by Somaliland in light of the current Los Anod conflict
• Option 3: Replace current map with a map highlighting Somaliland's de jure borders
• Option 4: Show a map of Somalia with its de jure borders, while also displaying one with its de facto borders.

It's worth noting there was an edit war on this issue back in December, resulting in the current version of the map being protected. ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 15:50, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Support Option 3, with a secondary preference for Option 2 per my comments above (before RFC). ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 17:30, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Somaliland is not a dejure state, in fact, never was either. Therefore, its claims control over territories is something that we are not certain of, also no international actor recognises Somaliland claim of these territories. Somaliland always had disputed border and now doesn't control all the eastern part of its claimed territory. Therefore option 3 is definitely not a choice.

Somala's current map is a dejure. The world recognised Somalia with its 1960s border, the entire world. It makes sense to leave it with the current option. I will vote Option 1 Nawal00 (talk) 19:51, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Update:Secondary preference for Option 4 ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 18:43, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 - I don't think our maps typically represent what authority "de facto" controls a certain region. They more typically represent what the internationally recognized boundries are (e.g. Ukraine). It's a fair point that not representing regions that are "de facto" controlled by other parties may be slightly misleading for readers, but I think the overwhelming counter argument to that is that it's relatively easy for us to figure out internationally recognized borders, and relatively hard for us to figure out de facto borders. Trying to use de facto borders would just throw everything into chaos. NickCT (talk) 16:45, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

  I understand the point about not using actual de facto line of control, hence my leaning towards Option 3, but it must be said that even on the Ukraine's page we have a map showing its de jure borders (The initial one), but then we have one showing territories currently occupied by Russia, as seen at File:Europe-Ukraine (disputed territory).svg. I actually never thought of using two maps beforehand, like it is on Ukraine. Perhaps it could work?ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 17:51, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

  I'm a bit confused by your statement. Would you agree or disagree that the map for this article (i.e. Somalia) should show Somalia's de jure borders, like Ukraine's map show's its de jure borders? Two maps could make sense. Showing the "disputed territories" somewhere in the body seems reasonable. NickCT (talk) 19:27, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry, I find it a bit hard to put it accross, I was suggesting we show that Somalia does indeed claim Somaliland, but does not control it in its entirety, which could be indicated via a shade if lighter green (it was like this until a edit war in December that resulted in the map being given protected status). Two maps could be a comprimise by allowing Somalia's internationally recognized borders to be shown while allowing people to view what it de facto controls. ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 21:12, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

  (For an example of what a mean, see Morocco and how West Sahara is highlighted on the map, or Cyprus in which North Cyprus is shown as claimed but uncontrolled.) ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 21:23, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah. I mean I guess we sometimes represent de facto borders (e.g. Cyprus, Morocco, Moldovia), and sometimes de jure ones (e.g. Ukraine, Yemen, Myanmar). I'm really not sure what the distinction is between those places. I stick to what I said earlier about de jure borders being easier to represent. NickCT (talk) 22:07, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

(I added a fourth option there now, based off the comments of NickCT) ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 10:00, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

• Comment - I'm confused by the options here. I don't understand the difference between options 1 and 3, I'm unsure what 2 would look like, and 4 seems like it's still leaving questions unanswered. I was just looking at the page for Ukraine, and for its European map, here, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Europe-Ukraine_(disputed_territory).svg#/media/File:Europe-Ukraine_(disputed_territory).svg, it shows the de jure and de facto territory in dark green, while showing the de jure but uncontrolled territory in light green. This would be my suggestion for Somalia, as well. Garnet Moss (talk) 00:04, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

  Option 1 shows only Somalia with borders recognised by the UN, option 3 would show both Somalia and Somaliland on the map. You brought up the Ukraine map. In this context it would fall into Option 3. ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 16:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 if it looks like the maps in Cyprus and Georgia (country). Alaexis_¿question? 10:02, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  This seems sensible to me – the two-color maps in those articles are clear, neutral, and informative. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 14:41, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  The main problem for option 3 is that SL is shown much bigger than it controls. Option 1 could be a temporary solution, 3 is definitely no accurate and not the right choice Anwar8989 (talk) 16:08, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 as I commented above, SL map shared in the past is inaccurate and while a new map is to be generated, option 1 is the de jure most real map to adhere to.
• Option 4 Ours is ok but doesn't give enough weight to the De Facto situation which is fairly stable and widely reported. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 09:46, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
• Option 4 if there is reliable information about de facto boundaries. Otherwise option 1. Senorangel (talk) 04:16, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

• Show de facto borders/claims using the different greens, this is the longstanding standard as laid out in the map conventions. It's concerning that this is not one of the options, as we should not show Somaliland's de jure borders. If the de facto borders have stably changed, that is a reason to update the map, not to throw out our longstanding conventions to handle territorial disputes. CMD (talk) 11:37, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

  I admit, I do think I phrased this RFC poorly. I think I your refering to Option 2 or Option 3. Option 2 would show what Somaliland has authority over Vs option 3 showing its claims. I am surprised it took this long for someone to even bring up conventions here. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 12:07, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

  We should not show Somaliland's claims on this article, Somaliland's claims should be shown on the Somaliland article. This article should show Somalia's claims. Option 2 then, although a note that while this specific bout of conflict is new, it is not unique and control has shifted in this are frequently between the many actors involved. CMD (talk) 15:00, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

  We need a new map that shows all areas identified as part of Somalia e.g all federal states including the newest SSC Khartoum as dark green and part controlled by SL as light green. Map that genuinely reflects the reality in the ground not the old ones that show smaller size of Somalia and larger SL territories Anwar8989 (talk) 16:32, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  Somaliland doesn’t have a dejure border as it is not recognised entity, add to that its claim border was never controlled and it has been reduced much further to the east since its war last year with new entity known as SSC Khatumo. So SL neither has recognised borders by the international community nor it controls the borders it claims. Nothing it settled here. So Somalia’s dejure it the best one to show. Sharwa (talk) 13:32, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

  Somalia's de jure border is shown in every option proposed. CMD (talk) 14:54, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Serbia and Kosovo, Kashmir on the 3 pages, China and Taiwan, Israel and PTs and Golan heights, Venezuela and Esequibo, and Morocco and WS are shown with de jure and de facto, although Ukraine is shown with Crimea. There is a clear convention for de facto to be overlayed, so I think Option 2

Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:19, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

"THE Somali community"

What does this even mean? It's a very buzzword-ish way to refer to an entire population of a country. 2603:7081:1603:A300:4B6C:E19C:E222:F8E1 (talk) 22:12, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Maraje

Maraje waa magaalo ku taal Somalia gaar ahaan Puntland oo ka tirsan Gobolka Sanaag Calmadow. Maraje waxaa dega Beesha Dubays Waa magaalo ku caan ah Beeraha iyo Xijiga. waa magaalo leh biyo Dur dur ah kuwaas oo looga faa'idaysto falashada Beeraha. Waxay 40km u jirtaa Bosaso Daarug (talk) 07:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Independence Days and followed History Correction.

British Somaliland 26 June 1960 Italian Somaliland 1st July 1960 Union Day July 1st 1960 Union Withdrawal 18 May 1991 154.115.220.86 (talk) 04:08, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 August 2024

In the history section of the Somalia page, it says: "The Darawiish defeated the Italian, British, Abyssinian colonial powers on numerous occasions, most notably, the 1903 victory at Cagaarweyne commanded by Suleiman Aden Galaydh, forcing the British Empire to retreat to the coastal region in the late 1900s. The Dervishes were finally defeated in 1920 by British airpower."

The term "late 1900s" doesn't seem to fit here. I assume it means "early 1900s". Winston508 (talk) 06:54, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done Charliehdb (talk) 12:01, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

History of the Somali kingdoms, Sultanates

How come there was zero mention of the Warsangeli sultanates?. They are one of the longest kingdoms in somalia, behind ajuuran. They ruled b/w 1218 to 1886AD. These sultanates were probably one of the most well known in Somali history yet zero mention. This alone makes me question the credibility of the research done to compile this. War-Faahiye (talk) 03:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)