Talk:Indonesian language

Loan words of English origin … not

Many English words were incorporated into Indonesian through globalization. Many Indonesians, however, mistake words already adopted from Dutch as words borrowed from English. This is due to the Germanic traces that exist in the two languages.

Well, yeah, and so does the article:

Indonesian adopts English words with standardization. For example: imajinasi from imagination, universitas from university, aksesori from accessory, geografi from geography, konservatif from conservative, rutin from routine, and so on.[73] However, there are several words that directly borrowed without standardization that have same meanings in English such as: bus, data, domain, detail, internet, film, golf, lift, monitor, radio, radar, unit, safari, sonar, and video, riil as real.[73]

The vast majority of these words is plausibly, if not obviously from Dutch, not English. It's for the most part the (approximate) Dutch pronunciation in Indonesian spelling. Imaginatie > imajinasi, conservatief > konservatif, real > real … and so on. Like a myriad of other Indonesian words, these were taken from or inspired by Dutch, for obvious historical reasons. English just happened to get these words the same place where Dutch got them: Latin, French, Standard-European scientific vocabulary.

(Universitas is a latinism, like komunitas, minoritas …)

I don't read Indonesian, but the source linked superficially doesn't seem to support the claim it's given as a source for. For example, it doesn't seem to contain the word Inggris (or Inggeris).

I'm not sure what this section is intended to convey, but such as it is, it's non-sense. 2A02:8108:1100:7B71:D110:FE9A:8754:1295 (talk) 20:01, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Fixed by providing better example added with reference. Ckfasdf (talk) 07:06, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

English loanwords from Malay or Indonesian?

Some Indonesian words have also been borrowed into English, among them the common words orangutan, gong, bamboo, rattan, sarong, and the less common words such as paddy, sago and kapok. The phrase "to run amok" comes from the Indonesian verb amuk (to run out of control, to rage).

Are you sure that English borrowed these words from Indonesian and not Malay? According to the Online Etymology Dictionary, all of these words were first attested in English long before Indonesian came into existence, and the dictionary says these loanwords were borrowed from Malay too, not Indonesian.

Links to the etymology pages of all the aforementioned Indonesian/Malay loanwords in English: orangutan, gong, bamboo, rattan, sarong, paddy, sago, kapok, amok. --GinormousBuildings (talk) 09:24, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

@GinormousBuildings: Agree. To say that these are borrowings from Indonesian is technically incorrect. The information should however stay some way or another. Let's think about how best to rephrase this. –Austronesier (talk) 09:38, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

@Austronesier: I think the best way to rephrase it would be by saying that the mentioned English words are just cognate with their Indonesian counterparts, where in one case (English), the words were borrowed, and in the other (Indonesian), the words were inherited instead. --GinormousBuildings (talk) 09:54, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Bhinneka Tunggal Ika

The phrase "Bhinneka Tunggal Ika" is not in Sanskrit but in Old Javanese. Ентусиастъ (talk) 07:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

@Ентусиастъ: Yes, well spotted! You can fix this (I'm bad at image sizing, so I'll leave it to others). –Austronesier (talk) 09:27, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Jakarta Indonesia Istiqlal-Mosque-03.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:09, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Recent changes

@Sgphawker: Please discuss your changes here first before reintroducing them. Much of it is unencyclopedic, poorly sourced or even incorrect (e.g. the etymology of "Indonesian" has nothing to do with "indigenous"). Davidelit and I will then show you in detail why most (if not all) of your changes are not an improvement. –Austronesier (talk) 09:07, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

@Austronesier: Wikipedia is free content that anyone can edit, use, modify, and distribute. (Read: WP:FREECONTENT), everyone can perform their contribution as long as the contributions is reliable which based on reliable sources (Read: WP:RELY). (Sgphawker (talk) 09:14, 12 May 2022 (UTC))

@Sgphawker: Please read WP:ONUS and WP:CONSENSUS. You cannot decide by yourself how this page should look like. Neither can I, but in cases of disagreement, the last stable version should remain until consensus for further changes is achieved. Further, many of your changes are not supported by reliable sources, or even explicitly contradict them (as in the case of L1 speakers). –Austronesier (talk) 09:26, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

@Austronesier: But reliable sources shouldn't be removed (Read: WP:ZEALOUS), while the user is trying so hard to delete all sources that can be verified. Many of your changes are not supported by reliable sources, or even explicitly contradict them is only your opinion, and goes back to WP:FREECONTENT anyone can contribute here, so non of your opinion matter, what's matter here is the sources that I included in my contributions per WP:RELY. And anyways, the one who put the source for L1 speakers is not me, I'm only provided the source for L2, so you talk to the wrong person. (Sgphawker (talk) 09:36, 12 May 2022 (UTC))

@Sgphawker: Your English prose is borderline inscrutable. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 10:29, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Chipmunkdavis has reverted to the last stable version; with this revert, some constructive edits by Davidelit "fell victim", s. this version (don't mind the overblown "Examples" section with §2 of the UDHR and the OR trying-hard "colloquial" rendering).

I agree with removing the "Words" section per WP:NOTDICTIONARY; but the trimmed lede is too short, with some good information lost, so I'd prefer to keep the long-standing lede version. Thoughts? Pinging also Ckfasdf –Austronesier (talk) 12:32, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

@Austronesier: It's been since I look up on this page so... to be honest, I couldn't really find the untrimmed lead version that you are talking about. However, I don't really have any objection to expand lead section as long as it's not major changes as shown here. Ckfasdf (talk) 21:22, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

@Ckfasdf: The current one is the long version. The short version (linked above) only consists of the first paragraph. –Austronesier (talk) 21:49, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Austronesier, this is to point out that the editor ran a whole bunch of socks and is now blocked indefinitely, though I doubt they'll stay away. Drmies (talk) 19:51, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

National/Official/Working Language ?

I am a bit confused with these terms and how do we put it on the infobox as |nation= parameter on Template:Infobox language is only meant to be used for official language.

Indonesian language is national language of Indonesia according to article 36 of the Indonesian constitution. However, it is official language of Indonesia per article 1 and 25 of Law No. 24/2009. Indonesian language is also one of working language of East Timor per article 159 of East Timor constitution.

I couldn't find reference that stated Indonesian language is official language in ASEAN, however there are several proposal to make Indonesian or Malay as official language of ASEAN. AFAIK, only English is declared as working language of ASEAN per article 34 of ASEAN charter.

Is there any idea to fix this issue? as I note that there are several past edit on this parameter on the infobox. Ckfasdf (talk) 01:55, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Since there is no reference that Indonesian language is official language of ASEAN, I have removed it from the infobox. I also couldn't find reference that state Indonesian language is recognized language in Netherlands or some of it's province, so it'll also be removed.

in regards to UN peacekeeping mission, they will follows Official languages of the United Nations and none of them is Indonesian. Indonesian peacekeeping mission may use Indonesian language between themselves but this will not constitute as official or recognized language. therefore this will be also be removed from the infobox. Feel free to reinsert if there are any reference. Ckfasdf (talk)

WP:PEACOCK (or: WP is not a peeing contest)

@Sarapritil: Here's the relevant policy behind User:Davidelit's revert:

• While information must be verifiable for inclusion in an article, not all verifiable information must be included. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article. Such information should be omitted or presented instead in a different article. The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content [emphasis added].

Frankly, why is it relevant to compare the "popularity" of Indonesian to another arbitrarily selected language? Indonesian's position in a global ranking of FL-teaching would be a welcome addition to this article, but not the unencyclopedic extension of regional rivalries.

FWIW, your number of languages (>700) is correct. Austronesier (talk) 10:19, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

"eu" in Indonesian Language

Refer to the latest edition on spelling of the Indonesian Language, whereas it was mentioned that there is new addition of digraph "eu" as mentioned here. On that reference, badan bahasa stated that "Monophthong in Indonesian language are denoted by combination vowel eu pronounced [ɘ]".

I did try to put this info on the article previously, however there are another editor who objected on this addition. Therefore, I'd like to open up discussion on how we include this new digraph into the article. Ckfasdf (talk) 02:59, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Btw, the reference above also explained words example that uses digraph "eu", such as eurih, seudati and sadeu. All of those word are included Kamus Besar Bahasa Indonesia, so I believe they are part of standard Indonesian. Ckfasdf (talk) 03:16, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

I still prefer a "traditional" presentation of Indonesian phonology with only six vowels /a, e, i, o, u, ə/. Yes, some speakers reproduce other vowel sounds and contrast taken over from regional languages, such as [ɘ] "eu" (usually transcribed [ɨ]) in unassimilated loans from Achehnese and Sundanese, or the /o ~ ɔ/ and /e ~ ɛ/ contrast adopted from Javanese. But I contest that this is standard Indonesian in the sense that educated speakers are required to reproduce these sounds and contrasts in order to be considered competent speakers of the national language. In fact, I am pretty sure that the very speakers who consistently take over the /o ~ ɔ/ and /e ~ ɛ/ contrasts from their native tongue do not necessarily produce [ɨ] at ease, and vice versa. And of course, tens of millions of educated speakers all over Indonesia have a six-vowel system without being frowned upon as having a phonologically defective accent. –Austronesier (talk) 19:30, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

IMO, standard Indonesian is Indonesian language as regulated by language authority (now Badan Bahasa, previously Ministry of Education). And, based on current regulation, there are only six vowels /a, e, i, o, u, ə/ (on previous edition of EYD, there are seven vowels including /ɛ/). Since the latest edition of EYD also includes digraph "eu" [ɘ] (AFAIK, these words are unassimilated loanword from Acehnese and Sundanese), therefore I suggest to include it on the article. Ckfasdf (talk) 06:53, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Add: We can of course mention [ɨ] as a marginal phoneme /ɨ/ in unassimilated loanwords in the detailed discussion of the sound system, and also the /o ~ ɔ/ and /e ~ ɛ/ contrasts. But not in the vowel table. –Austronesier (talk) 19:47, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

OK, it may works. while we are on vowel table, I suggest to remove Open-mid vowel from the table since they are no longer used in standard Indonesian. Ckfasdf (talk) 06:57, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

The main concern of the Badan Bahasa is orthography, but the fact that they reserve a digraph slot for [ɘ] indicates that there is a need for it based on actual standard Indonesian speech. Btw, proscribing a specific height for the /e/-phoneme was one of the silliest things I have ever seen, and my "nationalist" blood (NB I'm not Indonesian, but still...) has seized to boil now that they apparently have dropped it ;) –Austronesier (talk) 12:59, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Map of Indonesian language sphere - Linguistic map.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:39, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Just requesting someone find something on this

Actually, depending on where you go, Indonesians do in fact call Indonesian with Bahasa, particularly among students from more well to do families. (This is interesting to me, but I just want to request someone share a source if they could find one on this) 125.165.110.255 (talk) 13:11, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

This is already covered in the lede. I don't see the need for any additional content on this. People wrongly call the koala a bear, but that's not worth more than a passing mention either. Davidelit (Talk) 14:23, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

It's a bit different. No Australians call koalas bears, but plenty of Indonesians call their language Bahasa. HiLo48 (talk) 01:26, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Pre-Modern Malay on Infobox

Recently, I removed "Netherlands Indies Malay/Balai Pustaka Malay" on the Infobox. But Bebasnama and Austronesier, still suggest to keep it to differentiate the Malay language which eventually become Indonesian language from other Malay language which eventually become Malaysian Malay. And I am fine with that, however I still have concern on that addition since per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, infobox should present summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article. And in this case, I couldn't find any mention of either Netherlands Indies Malay or Balai Pustaka Malay on the article. It'll better if someone can also add those information into the article. Ckfasdf (talk) 22:58, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, you are right. I haven't looked at it that way. This needs to be harmonized in the main text. I will add something based on Collins and Husen Abas in the next days when I have time for expanding the text. –Austronesier (talk) 05:47, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Map of Indonesian language sphere

I question the Map of Indonesian language sphere being used in the Geographical distribution section. Where can we find the data this map is based on? It doesn't seem to remotely reflect reality. For instance, all of North America and Scandanavia are depicted as locations "where Indonesian language is seen as a business language, and is taught in some schools". My experience and knowledge is that of a layman, but that seems patently wrong to me. Certainly, "taught in some schools" can't be argued with, but except perhaps for small enclaves in metropolitan cities, I'm not aware of any areas in North America where Indonesian is routinely used as a language for conducting business. I see on 18 March 2023 it was nominated for deletion (Commons:Deletion requests/File:Map of Indonesian language sphere - Linguistic map.png), and on 13 April 2023, for lack of any other discussion, it was kept as being "in use". Maybe it should be renominated with a more expansive criticism ("poor map"). _signed, Willondon (talk) 18:01, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

It doesn't violate any Commons rules, so we may let it slumber there, but in WP it comes entirely unsourced, so you may well remove it, or at least change its caption to a more realistic version (although personally I can't see how this might achieved; the whole thing is just so outlandish). –Austronesier (talk) 22:22, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

SULTAN BULUNGAN, 1901-1925.

Sri Paduka Baginda Sultan Makhotah Sultan Maulana Muhammad Kasim Aldin/(Kasimuddin.)The 8th Successor Sultan Bulungan with wife Her majesty Puan Prinçess Sharifa Amina from Bulungan.in the unavoidable Circumstances During Confrontation/Confrantasi Late President Sukarno.Republic Indonesia the Only Son Crown Sultan was Voluntarily Exile To Kalap Tumindao,Philippines with his Wife therein,living about12 successive years with a Descendants Four Sons and One Daughter.before Going back to Bulungan Palace to Replace his Mother Rato Karsuma. 14.1.64.206 (talk) 04:12, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

2020 census

@Bayoka55: The data about L1 speakers of Indonesia is on p. 123. While I'm not a big fan of using raw census data, the material on pp. 121-130 about language proficiency and usage is straightforward and well-clustered, so it's a good source for the infobox as long as the figures are also updated in the main text, IMHO. However, both you and Cookiemonster1618 are focussing on the infobox and lede only, without going to the relevant section "Geographical distribution" as well. This violates MOS:LEDE and MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. –Austronesier (talk) 15:42, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

the source for the number of first language speakers is found here in this publication which was released in 2023 https://www.bps.go.id/en/publication/2023/07/18/4a49f846d0708c1fe1117b5f/population-of-indonesia-the-result-of-long-form-population-census-2020.html. It mentions 71,971,184 Indonesian first language speakers and a total of 248,501,794 speakers. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 18:17, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Also thanks for making a discussion on the talk page I was actually about to do one right now explaining that the number of first language speakers is found in the cited pdf I gave earlier along with the total number of speakers. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 18:19, 27 August 2024 (UTC)