Talk:Republic of Indian Stream

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Using the term 'self declared republic' to describe Indian Stream seems biased and POV. The fact is that they had a real government, elected by its citizens, for a number of years. Aren't ALL republics 'self declared'? I don't seem to recall King George declaring the US a republic. I believe he had some choice other words to say on the subject.... Mike Lorrey 19:08 1/27/05 EST

Feel free to rewrite! That's what the 'pedia's all about. P.S. If you use ~~~~, your signatures will datestamp themselves. :) jengod 03:21, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

I've had a look at what is known about "Indian Stream" and it seems that the page does need bit of a rewrite. POV is presented as fact. --Dumbo1 23:16, 11 May 2005 (UTC) Adding to that, I don't mean to be harsh, the article is mostly well written and entertaining. --Dumbo1 23:26, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Feelings not hurt. Research done on Internet. Actual facts welcome. :) jengod 00:54, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

Doan's book is considered the best source of information on the topic other than looking at Pittsburg town records. I read the book several years ago. BTW: how can one write a POV on an issue that was done and settled 170 years ago, other than being critical of the validity of the facts....69.173.101.181 05:01, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Removed Free State Project link

I removed the link to the Free State Project article because I don't see how it's relevant. While they're occuring at the same rough geographic location, I don't see any other relationship between them. If anyone disagrees, feel free to readd it, but please leave a comment about why you're doing so. Alereon 15:49, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

If you knew anything about the FSP, you'd likely understand the linkage. The FSP grew out of the dissertation of Jason Sorens on secessionist and self-determination movements in history. The state constitutional environment in New Hampshire that tolerated the establishement of the Republic of Indian Stream, of limited government and self determination, is considered to be contributory to the present environment in NH which attracted the FSP to choose it as their destination. It would behoove you to research your topics before you edit them. To do otherwise is POV. Citizenposse 20:44, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

An actual Constitution?

That would be amazing if it was still around, or the minutes or election info of the Legislature, or Governor... or SOMETHING. I realize it's a little obscure, but anyone think that these still exist somewhere? 68.39.174.238 21:27, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The constitution is contained in Showerman's 1915 book on Luther Parker.Jeff in CA (talk) 23:31, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Yes, and one of the most interesting in Democracy

Years before the Indian Stream residents formed a "national government" they were a well-organized social community and tracked costs of their communal operation in ledger books. A committee of five men created a draft of a constitution, then presented it to the circa-68 heads of households. Once revised and accepted by vote, it was transcribed into the town ledger for 1832. This ledger is or was held by the archives of the State of New Hampshire, at Concord. Brown saw it while doing his undergraduate thesis at Dartmouth. Brown and I have corresponded about this.

I cannot find the exact reference but my recollection is as follows. During a Political Science PhD thesis on "constitutions of democracies" the student examined that of the Indian Stream Republic almost as a joke. It ceased to be funny when the researcher discovered it was the ONLY such democratic constituton to mention CHILDREN, and to indicate what children have the right to expect from a national government. Whoa!

Excuse me but "the Doan book" is a terrible source of misinformation. It was written by retired Judge Doan, whose [drunk] forebear in 1835 shot Andrew Young, a Quebec Justice of the Peace, in the testicles. Funny? Yes, but in 1849 the United States Congress awarded Young's widow the sum of $2,000 and implied with that was an apology from the United States government. For reference see the Congressional Record. I can recall no mention whatsoever of this embarrassing verity in Doan's book.

Sigh. The town of Pittsburg NH is not the best source of information. The national archives of the USA, Canada, and Great Britain all contain material about the short-lived Indian Stream Republic. Their elected officials corresponded with Queen Victoria and President Andrew Jackson. Additional records are found with both the governments of Quebec and New Hampshire. Various newspapers archives from the 1830s also cover the topic.

In 1835, at Parmalee and Joy's Tavern, along the Connecticut River in Caanan, Vermont, 20 to 25 men got stinking drunk. Several were veterans of the War of 1812 and were in the New Hampshire Militia. In their cups they foolishly decided to form a possee. Taking a buckboard with them they rode into Quebec and attacked the local Eastern Township magistrate Alexander Rae and his assistant named Young. Young was shot in the balls. Rae tried but could not flee from them because he had been born with two "club feet". After his assailants hacked at him many times with a saber they trussed him, tossed him into the buckboard, and triumphantly drove back to Vermont with their captive, to continue their drinking.

But in the tavern now was a local Vermont lawyer. He upbraided the drunks for their stupidity in creating what was bound to become an "International Incident". With the tavernkeeper, he washed and dressed Rae's wounds, helped him into the buckboard, and drove him back home, where a physician was trying to save the life of Andrew Young, bleeding from a femoral artery.

In 1942 was published a multi-volume set of books containing the Diplomatic Correspondence of the United States and England. There must be some 5,000 to 10,000 words devoted to investigation and the diplomacy of this crass stupidity. I have read the documents. When President Andrew Jackson received word of this event, and news that the New Hampshire governor had ordered troops to occupy the Indian Stream Territory he went ballistic. Jackson sent word back to the New Hampshire governor (Hill?) that he was to get his troops the hell out of Indian Stream. He copied the British Ambassador in Washington D.C. and also, I believe, Governor Gosford of Quebec.

During the 1842 boundary negotiations between Daniel Webster and Alexander Baring - there was an understood but unstated psychological tradeoff of the "Indian Stream War" with the "Caroline Incident" in which Canadian drunks fired the ship Caroline on the NY side of Niagara River and sent it in flames over the Falls. Baring put up no fight to have the Indian Stream Territory awarded to Quebec. Neither did Baring insist upon using the accurate 45th parallel as the New York-Quebec boundary because it meant thousands of people would have their nationality changed.

The history of the Indian stream Republic is one of my hobbies. The present boundary between New Hampshire and Quebec is Halls Stream. I have walked the center of this stream with two passports in my fishing vest, one from the USA and one from Canada, because I am a dual citizen.

Trylon 23:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems I am traversing the annals of time by responding to a posting from nine years ago. I point out several things in relation to the above. Doan's book does indeed describe the shooting of Bernard Young and his recuperation on pages 227 and 232. Also, the magistrate's name was Alexander Rea. Victoria became queen in 1837, three months after Andrew Jackson left office. The province of Quebec did not exist until 1867.

I do not share the above negative assessment of Doan's book. In fact I have seen positive reviews, the book itself is meticulouly researched and has an extensive bibliography. The preparation of the text for posthumous publication was vetted by a Dartmouth College history professor. It is beautifully written. Jeff in CA (talk) 00:48, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

It does not border "Quebec" per se

During the period under consideration, the territory borders on the British Colony of Lower Canada, *not* the Province of Quebec. There still need to be the Lower Canada Rebellions of 1837 and 1838, leading to the union of the two Canadas (Lower and Upper), producing Canada West (Ontario) and Canada East (Quebec). It's only after Confederation in 1867 that there is a Province of Quebec. Varlaam 00:55, 12 October 2007 (UTC) (in Toronto)

This article's map should be revised. Instead of saying "British Province of Quebec", it should say "British Colony of Lower Canada (Quebec eff 1867)". GBC (talk) 18:20, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

A Micronation?

The impression I get from the article suggests that this was a fully functional nation-state, which surely means it wasn't a micronation? Indeed, it sounds like it's status is more similar to that of [[1]] than, say, Sealand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FutureDragon (talk • contribs) 18:03, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you, but where does it imply or say in the article that it was a micronation? Someone recently briefly categorized it as such, but I removed the category. --Ken Gallager (talk) 19:39, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

@Ken Gallager: In the WikiProject banners at the top of this talk page. While that might not be "in the article" per se, it's still connected to it. Cooljeanius (talk) (contribs) 05:15, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

1906 published report on the Republic of Indian Stream

I saw this and thought it might be of interest to editors of this article. Here are some translated excerpts from a 1906 published report that was written in French, La République d'Indian Stream, by François Joseph Audet.

The excerpts that are translated below come from "Google Translate," but I have carefully edited the English translation provided by Google for readability and meaning in context. A part of the translated excerpts is a re-translation back into English from the French translation of the original English correspondence. As I don't have the original English letter, I cannot provide those words directly. The 1906 document is characterized by flowery prose; however, I chose to limit these excerpts to factual statements and conclusions drawn from the report.

This is in the Public Domain in the United States and is Google-digitized. See http://hdl.handle.net/2027/hvd.32044105247910

La République d'Indian Stream, by François Joseph Audet (1867-1943), 1906

… The notes that we have collected and compiled on the Republic of Indian Stream – which has made little noise in the world but whose short story was nevertheless quite momentous – though incomplete, we believe are enough to give an exact idea of its origin, development and end.

…

The Republic of Indian Stream, bounded on the southeast by the Connecticut River and the stream whose name she bore, and to the west by Halls Stream, was located in the current Coos County, State of New Hampshire, north of the forty-fifth parallel. She was surrounded by many small streams, tributaries of the Connecticut River.

For over half a century, this small property was involved in rather important negotiations that took place between Great Britain and the United States regarding the border between Canada and the neighboring republic. It seems however to have remained unknown to our historians.

Should this small republic be regarded as an independent state or as a single municipality? This question was posed to us. We believe we can conclude that this republic was indeed exerting the sovereign functions of an independent state. The acts of the inhabitants of the territory and the decisions of Judge Fletcher seem to fully confirm this progress. The people of Indian Stream, having governed themselves, are indeed considered as a neutral nation. Their government consisted of a board of five members elected annually.

…

Judge John Fletcher of Sherbrooke [raised some concerns] in a letter dated April, 1835, to Lord Aylmer, then Governor of Lower Canada, and he admitted not being able to resolve them despite his deep knowledge of the region:

"As you know," he wrote, "for several years at our southeastern border there has existed a kind of extra-national institution, generally known under the name of Indian Stream Settlement, which, like other similar anomalies, came out of the work of diplomats who prepared the famous peace treaty with the United States in 1783. I remember having heard of this republic many years ago, and for a long time I intended to go and visit its people, to make me aware of things and enable me to better do my duty as regards that part of the country, but my many activities here have prevented me from doing this project.

"It would appear now," he continued, "that the growing prosperity and the wealth of this part of the country have long attracted the attention of the government of the neighboring state of New Hampshire. Accordingly, they sent to it a few years ago, a surveyor to determine the most northwestern point of a stream on which the Connecticut River was dependent. He could, naturally, he thought, have no difficulty in proving to our government that this should be the most northwestern source of the Connecticut River, and a stream with its source at this point, however small it was, or whatever name it wore, was actually the Connecticut River itself, which, according to the terms of the Treaty, constituted the border.

"It seems that this gentleman was very happy in his research, having found that by admitting that one of the sources of a small stream that flows into the Connecticut River was actually the source of the latter, they may well enlarge considerably the state of New Hampshire at the cost of Lower Canada, and the constituted authorities have instituted prosecutions for sedition and high treason against some inhabitants of the small republic for daring to question their supremacy over a large portion of territory that had until now been viewed by error and ignorance as part of Lower Canada.

"A man I had never seen or known," added Mr. Fletcher, "but who seems to me to have good manners and a good dose of intelligence, came to see me last Saturday, as Commissioner of the Indian Stream Settlement, which is one of the principal officials. The object of his mission seemed to be to ask my protection and to notify, through me, the governments of Canada and the Empire, about some invasion of their territory by the sheriff of the neighboring county of Coos, which took place, it appears, under the pretext of executing some criminal proceedings against offenders who had refused to recognize the universal supremacy of the U.S.; and this invasion threat, if renewed, could be the cause of bloodshed. The consequence of this arbitrary measure was that the vast majority of Republicans have become very dedicated and loyal subjects of His Majesty, and they are now all absolutely convinced that the true Connecticut River is actually the one that is mentioned in the Treaty of Paris, and they should be designated as living north of the border. I replied that I would submit the case to Your Excellency."

"I, Judge Fletcher, transmit simultaneously, a petition of the inhabitants of this territory, in which they expose their grievances, asking for help and protection, and recognize the jurisdiction of Lower Canada. For a long time the government of the state of New Hampshire has claimed this territory as its own, and G. Sullivan, Attorney of Coos County, maintained that it was under the jurisdiction of Coos County and supported the officers of their courts as having justifiable cause to exercise their functions. On the other hand, the government of Lower Canada claimed it also had the area surveyed in 1792, by Samuel Holland, surveyor-general of the province, and it had been included in Drayton Township."

In a report dated March 9, 1793, Holland pointed out to the Lieutenant Governor, Alfred Clarke, the idea of considering Halls Stream as the boundary instead of the Connecticut River, as it appeared to be the origin, while New Hampshire has stated its position only recently, and he added: "The border between Lower Canada and the part of the former province of New York today called Vermont, as traced by the authorities of the two provinces during the 1772-73-74 years, crosses the stream named Halls Stream and proceeds thence east to the stream which has always been and still bears the name of Connecticut River. This river, according to what I have always heard and understood," he said, "has always been considered the New Hampshire border."

… For some years, American Loyalists, driven from their homes by the revolution, flocked to the Eastern Townships, and the first inhabitants of this region probably were these political refugees.

…

Moreover, being subject to no law, it soon became a place of refuge for a diverse group that desired to live freely. But, with the population increasing, it was soon discovered that although absolute freedom was a fine thing in theory, there was a need to organize and provide some form of government, which was formed as we have seen, named the Board of Directors, and they named the new state the Republic of Indian Stream.

New citizens soon became quite numerous. At the beginning of 1835, the establishment of Indian Stream contained sixty-nine families, composed of four hundred and fourteen people, and it was very prosperous. Each family head had a hundred acres of land, and there were more than fifteen hundred acres under cultivation.

…

On January 20, 1835, William Smith, Assistant Coos County Sheriff, imprisoned one of the residents, Joseas Powell, in Lancaster, seat of his county, on the complaint of a Luther Parker. The people, outraged by this arbitrary process, protested loudly with reason against this act they viewed as an affront to their freedom and privilege they had enjoyed until then to govern themselves. But, feeling powerless in the face of this formidable opponent, they threw themselves into the arms of the leadership of the government of Canada and sent one of their advisors to Judge Fletcher, to tell them what had just happened and to ask for help and protection against the invaders, as he says in his letter. Shortly after Parker entered Canada, he was arrested on 2 July and imprisoned in Sherbrooke, seat of Saint-François District.

The annual elections of the small republic took place as usual, on 9 March 1835. The names of the advisors elected that year: Richard J. Blanchard, Jeremiah Tabor, Burley Blood, Abner Hyland and William White. The new administration turned to Judge Fletcher to activate the negotiations that seemed to be hardly moving.

On 8 June, William Badger, governor of New Hampshire, claimed in his message to the legislature, under the law of that State to exercise jurisdiction over all the territory in dispute. "Firstly, because," he said, "the area is within the border set by the Treaty of 1783" and cited in support of his claims, the same words referring to the Treaty and certain Patent Letters granting land to different people, and the proclamation of the English sovereign describing Canada's borders, after the transfer in 1763; "wherein," he added, "we would even be entitled to more than we ask. Second, we declare the actual possession of the territory in question since 1783." He then tried to demonstrate what the most northwestern source of the Connecticut River is, referring to a report of a committee of the Legislature of New Hampshire, dated January 6, 1790, which was appointed to demarcate the boundary between this state and Lower Canada, he quoted the fact that a resolution had been passed by his government in 1820, authorizing the Attorney General to institute proceedings against any person who illegally established within the lands of this state, and that consequently as a result became a resident of the territory that had been in dispute. …

On 12 October of the same year (1835), one John H. Tyler, resident of Hereford Township, close to that of Drayton, having gone into the latter township, was set upon and arrested for debt, by those who tried to take him to jail in New Hampshire, but he escaped. [This ignited a serious incident.] …

Many exchanges of correspondence and documents occurred between governments of Lower Canada and New Hampshire, but with it amounting to nothing, the imperial authorities addressed, through Ambassador Lord Aylmer, their complaints to the central government in Washington. However, the talks dragged on and nothing was decided.

Residents of Indian Stream, always threatened by New Hampshire authorities, exposed to incessant harassment of Coos County officials, and not being rescued by the British government, finally lost courage. Some left this region that had become so inhospitable, others decided to avoid greater bloodshed, to transfer their dedication and loyalty to the American republic, and on August 5, (1835) they announced through Judge Fletcher that they now recognized the jurisdiction of New Hampshire. …

Jeff in CA (talk) 04:20, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

I have been reading Daniel Doan's 1997 book, Indian Stream Republic: Settling a New England Frontier, 1785–1842. The author states that the capitulation of "thirty-odd" members of the Indian Stream Assembly to the threats of force from Coos County Sheriff White, with two companies of infantry nearby at the ready, occurred on August 4, 1835. Jeff in CA (talk) 04:55, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

References

Treaty References to the Republic of Indian Stream / Felix S. Cohen's Handbook of Federal Indian Law

I had heard that the Republic of Indian Stream had been "annexed" to New Hampshire-by the Sheriff of Coos County, but wasn't certain of the date. Since I have a printed copy of "Felix S. Cohen's Handbook of Federal Indian Law" (not the original edition, nor the [US Dep't of the Interior's] censored version, but the University of New Mexico Press edition [reportedly of Cohen's original manuscript-presumably the 1971 printing, as it has no copyright page or publication date on the back of the title page] ), I had searched for references to appropriate treaties, etc., there. My local library Reference Librarian showed me that a current publisher (LexisNexus) has a 2015 update to Cohen's Handbook of Federal Indian Law. I would ask that the Wikipedia note the 2015 updated LexisNexus and prior Lexis/Nexus editions, as the treaties pertaining to the Republic of Indian Stream may be cited there. Thank You. Robert Olcott (r_olcott@hotmail.com) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.14.173.226 (talk) 20:13, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Assembly Notes 1832-1835

The actual minutes of the assembly meetings of Indian Stream are now available online in a publication titled: The History of Indian Stream and Luther Parker. https://archive.org/details/indianstreamrepu00show/page/68/mode/2up The book is in the collection of the New Hampshire Historical Society.

I ran across this after discovering that one of my ancestors, John Haynes, was an initial settler of the Indian Stream Republic. These notes are very interesting reading for anyone who is studying governments and their formation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EHFriend (talk • contribs) 13:01, June 28, 2020 (UTC)

Yes, this is the 1915 Grant Showerman book mentioned above in the section, “An actual constitution?” Jeff in CA (talk) 06:28, 8 July 2020 (UTC)