Talk:Jats

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Article history

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Jats was copied or moved into Jat with this edit on 17 July 2005. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

No consensus, 4 October 2019, from Jat people to Jat.
Not moved, 8 April 2020, from Jat people to Jat (people).
Moved, 24 May 2022, from Jat people to Jats.

Archives

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Canada

There are a disproportionate amounts of Jatts in Canada. It should be added to the infobox. About 1 in 20 people in Canada are Jatts. 2605:8D80:325:3FC6:EC0D:8DC0:B83:12A7 (talk) 16:26, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please provide us a reliable source which contains the descriptive material about presence of Jatts in Canada. Super Dud (talk) 11:09, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Iranian" origin of Jats + "Zutt" in modern Iraq

I don't know which troll is editing this, but NO, Jats are NOT an "Iranian tribe".

Furthermore, there is practically nothing left of the Zutt people, those Indus pastoralists settled in 6th-11th century Iraq, so to imply that proper Jat clans live in modern Iraq is a lie! The most you can say is that there is still a district (Abu al-Khaseeb) named after them. But you should remember, as mentioned in the Zutt article itself, that Zutt was a generic exonym used by Arab chroniclers! Good luck trying to prove definitively that such-and-such Zutt is definitely a Jat. Heck, geneticists and historians argue that the Jats of Balochistan and Sindh aren't related to other Jats, so first focus on proving that!

Whoever is moderating this article, undo these edits and ban that troll. Forticus02 (talk) 21:05, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. The article of the subject is the modern caste/community of Pakistan and India who speak various Indo-Aryan languages. Edits like these are not relevant to the topic, at max can be historical, but again subject to WP:CONSENSUS here. Note that the article before these changes, by and large reflected the consensus version. Pinging @Sitush, NitinMlk, Ekdalian, Fowler&fowler, and Utcursch:. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:06, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All sorts of origins have been posited, Southern Russian, among them. But they are herders from the southern regions of Sind, that after migration north to the Punjab became non-elite tillers. The cantankerous editors on that page, do not like the word "non-elite" (commonly also applied to other tiller "castes" such as the Kurmi), so they keep imagining grand scenarios. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:29, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fylindfotberserk thanks for the ping. - NitinMlk (talk) 18:09, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree with you, Fylindfotberserk. I have posted the notice related to South Asian social groups on the talk page of the concerned user! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 05:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Forum-y stuff

== Sindhi Zutts are not the same as Punjabi Jatts = Theory Debunked They are the SAME Their is one big mistake with it. I am from sindh Karachi. Their are no Local sindhi Jatts all the Jatts in sindh are either from Pakistani Punjab Province or indian punjab that came here after partition. The Zutt which was mentioned by caliphate are a local Sindhi clan who still exists but are camel herders. I think their is a confusion here because of the same sound. Yaqub50 (talk) 13:07, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Zutt is an arabic / persian word for the ethnicity jatt 2001:8003:471E:D100:1928:6BEA:EB44:8DD3 (talk) 15:56, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Zutt" is indeed the Arabic word for Jatt, but it's not accurate. It's like the word "Firanj/Farang" (Frank) being used to describe Crusaders, even though all Crusaders were obviously not Franks. Even on the Zutt page itself, it mentions how Arabs included groups like Andaghars, Sayabijas, Qufs, and Jadgals. It's a confederation at best.

Otherwise, at least make a distinction between the high Iran_N Sindhi Jatts, and the high Steppe Jatts (of Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan, Western Uttar-Pradesh). They are genetically and culturally distinct. KhandaEnjoyer03 (talk) 01:11, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dude, Punjabi Jatts also have high Iran_N (IVC) DNA. In fact, L1a2 is a major Jat Y-Haplogroup, which is of Zagrosian origin. Are you going to write off half of the Jat population because they don't fit your autosomal Steppe conditions? If you do that, you'd be ignoring most of Muslim Jat history, and a solid chunk of Sikh Jat history. Why would you propose that?

If your argument is that Sindhi Jats are distinct, then make that case without Steppe kanging. Forticus02 (talk) 21:18, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

and those jatts forefathers which were/are , in indian / pakistani punjab who have came after pation , migrated from the broader balochistan and sindh region in the medeval to Punjab in an attempt to find sufficient agriculture fertility 2001:8003:471E:D100:1928:6BEA:EB44:8DD3 (talk) 16:01, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong. Jatts do not originate from Sindh, contrary to what this article claims. If they did, then all Jatts would have the characteristically high Iran_N genetic component found in Sindhis (instead of the unusually high Steppe, especially among Haryanvis). There is also archeological evidence of Jatt figures like Shalinder. KhandaEnjoyer03 (talk) 01:13, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct. Even if we ignore that Zutt was a generic term for Indus pastoralists, we cannot ignore that Sindhi Jatts (Sammats, Lohanas, Jamotes) and Punjabi Jatts are culturally and genetically distinct. KhandaEnjoyer03 (talk) 01:16, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

i am not sure if you are saying im correct or wrong . 2001:8003:471E:D100:45D1:EAF:1913:2C3F (talk) 11:39, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 October 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change "iranian" to "Iranian" in first sentence. Jelloway (talk) 21:20, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

how are they iranian in the first place lmao? Stuckintheloop (talk) 23:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Formal request

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

"Request for revision and clarification:

I contest the assertion linking Jats to the Zutt community, citing irrational exuberance. Given the significant demographic differences between the two groups, I propose separating their discussions into distinct articles.

To avoid misunderstandings, I suggest:

1. Removing the exaggerated statement. 2. Seeking third-party input for objective refinement.

Jats are a substantial community within the Indian geographical region, with a notably larger population compared to Zutt. A more nuanced approach will ensure accuracy and clarity.

Thank if my concentration reach to editor."

Powerinhand (talk) 23:20, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

100% agreed. "Zutt" was a generic exonym, akin to "Firanj" or "Moor". And while some of those who fell under the Zutt category might have been of Iranian origin, Jats in general are Indics. At most, you can say Indo-Iranian, but not just Iranian. Forticus02 (talk) 01:28, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

Recent undiscussed changes by user DelphiLore

DelphiLore, regarding your changes in the lead, this article is about an ethnic/caste group of Indian and Pakistani Punjab and its adjacent regions.^[1]^[2] It is not about an Iranian tribe of Iraq and Iran. In fact, neither the sources added by you nor the other scholarly sources describe them as an Iranian tribe of Iraq and Iran. Please see WP:BRD and develop WP:CONSENSUS here.

Regarding Zutt, the subject of this article is not Zutt. You are reading an interpretation of Zutt in the historical context by a few historians and then presenting your own WP:SYNTHESIS that the subject of this article is Zutt. But that's not the case.

Zutt has been a generic term used for all Indian migrants at least since the 5th century BC. Only the Zutt soldiers are connected with this ethnic/caste group by some historians. But even that is disputed by multiple scholars. One of the sources added by you itself states that the Muslim historians seem to be disputing the origin of Zutts from the early times. He doesn't even mention Jats in his book. Instead, he provides multiple theories of the Zutts' origin.^[3] Surprisingly, there is no Origin section in Zutt, but the discussion about that belongs to that article's talk page.

Finally, we can only add historical details about the subject of this article that are WP:DUE, i.e. published in both mainstream WP:Tertiary and WP:Secondary sources of historians. The rest belongs to Zutt or other articles. So please propose your changes here after providing both Tertiary and Secondary sources of historians. - NitinMlk (talk) 18:01, 5 November 2024 (UTC) [reply]

References

^ Gould, Harold A. (2006) [2005]. "Glossary". Sikhs, Swamis, Students and Spies: The India Lobby in the United States, 1900–1946. SAGE Publications. p. 439. ISBN 978-0-7619-3480-6. Jat: name of large agricultural caste centered in the undivided Punjab and western Uttar Pradesh
^ McLeod, W. H.; Fenech, Louis E. (2014). Historical Dictionary of Sikhism (3rd ed.). Rowman & Littlefield. p. 166. ISBN 978-1-4422-3600-4. JAT. A rural caste of Punjab and Haryana. In Pakistani Punjab the Jats are Muslims; in Indian Punjab, adjacent Haryana, and northern Rajasthan they are Sikhs; and in the remainder of Haryana most of them are Hindus. In rural Punjab the Sikh Jats are strongly dominant, owning most of the valuable land and controlling the administration. This control extends into the state politics of the Punjab, where most of the chief ministers since independence in 1947 have been Jats. In the Panth they are particularly prominent, comprising more than 60 percent of all Sikhs.
^ Zakeri, Mohsen (1995). Sasanid Soldiers in Early Muslim Society: The Origins of Ayyaran and Futuwwa. Harrassowitz Verlag. pp. 120–121. ISBN 978-3-447-03652-8. The origin of the Zutt seems to have been an object of dispute among the Muslim historians from the early times onwards. They are said to have been a people from Sind called to Iran by the last Sasanid king to help him fight the Arabs.¹⁰⁴ However, other sporadic information points to their presence in Iran at least from the fifth century B.C.¹⁰⁵ The tenth-century Muslim author al-Khwarazmi states that they were a people from Sind whose real name jit (pl. juttan, in Baluchi means "camelman") was arabicized to Zutt. They were employed as a group to protect roads (badhraqa). Very little is known about the Zutt before the rise of Islam. Very little is known about the Zutt before the rise of Islam. For de Goeje, who was among the first modern scholars to study their history, they were a people originating from Sind and distributed throughout the Sasanid Empire to work as wandering musicians and entertainers for the ordinary people.¹⁰⁷ Firdawsf's Shah-nama, on which de Goeje based his comments, tells us that a group of twelve thousand Zutt, also called Luri, or Luli,¹⁰⁸ reached Iran during the reign of Bahram Gur (420–38), who settled them and gave them land and seed to cultivate. But since their traditional livelihood consisted primarily of fish and birds, they had little interest in farming, and took to a life of wandering. These accounts do not specify where and when they did this, and are more likely a projection of the conditions of the poet's life-time to earlier periods.

NitinMlk (talk) 18:01, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[Gould-1] Gould, Harold A. (2006) [2005]. "Glossary". Sikhs, Swamis, Students and Spies: The India Lobby in the United States, 1900–1946. SAGE Publications. p. 439. ISBN 978-0-7619-3480-6. Jat: name of large agricultural caste centered in the undivided Punjab and western Uttar Pradesh

[McLeod-2] McLeod, W. H.; Fenech, Louis E. (2014). Historical Dictionary of Sikhism (3rd ed.). Rowman & Littlefield. p. 166. ISBN 978-1-4422-3600-4. JAT. A rural caste of Punjab and Haryana. In Pakistani Punjab the Jats are Muslims; in Indian Punjab, adjacent Haryana, and northern Rajasthan they are Sikhs; and in the remainder of Haryana most of them are Hindus. In rural Punjab the Sikh Jats are strongly dominant, owning most of the valuable land and controlling the administration. This control extends into the state politics of the Punjab, where most of the chief ministers since independence in 1947 have been Jats. In the Panth they are particularly prominent, comprising more than 60 percent of all Sikhs.

[Zakeri-3] Zakeri, Mohsen (1995). Sasanid Soldiers in Early Muslim Society: The Origins of Ayyaran and Futuwwa. Harrassowitz Verlag. pp. 120–121. ISBN 978-3-447-03652-8. The origin of the Zutt seems to have been an object of dispute among the Muslim historians from the early times onwards. They are said to have been a people from Sind called to Iran by the last Sasanid king to help him fight the Arabs.¹⁰⁴ However, other sporadic information points to their presence in Iran at least from the fifth century B.C.¹⁰⁵ The tenth-century Muslim author al-Khwarazmi states that they were a people from Sind whose real name jit (pl. juttan, in Baluchi means "camelman") was arabicized to Zutt. They were employed as a group to protect roads (badhraqa). Very little is known about the Zutt before the rise of Islam. Very little is known about the Zutt before the rise of Islam. For de Goeje, who was among the first modern scholars to study their history, they were a people originating from Sind and distributed throughout the Sasanid Empire to work as wandering musicians and entertainers for the ordinary people.¹⁰⁷ Firdawsf's Shah-nama, on which de Goeje based his comments, tells us that a group of twelve thousand Zutt, also called Luri, or Luli,¹⁰⁸ reached Iran during the reign of Bahram Gur (420–38), who settled them and gave them land and seed to cultivate. But since their traditional livelihood consisted primarily of fish and birds, they had little interest in farming, and took to a life of wandering. These accounts do not specify where and when they did this, and are more likely a projection of the conditions of the poet's life-time to earlier periods.

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