Talk:Sherden

Photo image of Shardana

Does anyone have a public image of the Shardana that can be used in this article. Unfortunately the Photos I took at Medinet Habu in November have not turned out satisfactory enough to use in this aticle. John D. Croft 12:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Edit war arising?

I found out that User:80.171.10.248 is doing quite a lot of complex edits. They seem valuable (apart from a couple of unencyclopedic remarks that should have better left to this page), but these edits also seem to delete otherwise valuable information. I'd like this user to sign up to the Wikipedia and discuss his/her changes on this page. In the meantime I'd try to merge old and new information in the hope of creating a more informative page. --Cyclopia 18:17, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

older

Could someone put this into English? -- Zow

Babelfish returns enough to see it's about a Biblical story:

"SHARDANA, the PEOPLE Of the SEA. The new book of Leonardo Melis, that it tells of the coalition of Sea Peoples that devastarono in II the millenium a.C. empires EGIZIO, ITTITA, MICENEO and CRETES. The tribe passing of DAN that lead Israel outside from Egypt (Sher-dan = DAN PRINCIPLES). The Sardinia as Giza (nuraghes Sardinian represents the Greater Orsa!). The Shardana knew the compass! The Vichinghi descendants of the Sher-Dana. The Ireland colonized from the Tuatha-de-dan (DAN PEOPLE). The Shardana and the Bible (constructors of Arca and the Tempio di Salomone)... Shardanaleo www.shardana.org"

Quoting the article:

"Anyhow, little serious literature is available on the topic, due to the very few valid elements available; most of what recently published seems to be more related to local nationalistic or however political purposes."

Wikipedia policy is that all articles should have a neutral point of view. According to Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable". This clearly does not apply to the text in the article.

It is true that some of the literature (especially the internet-based literature) is "related to local nationalistic or however political purposes", due to the naturally renewed pride that this new interpretation of archeological facts inspires in Sardinians. An example is the www.shardana.org website mentioned above, whose author is an active independentist politician and no professional archeologist.

On the other hand, there is plenty of scientific literature associating Shardana with Sardinia. In fact, in recent years there has been much talk and much wider agreement on this topic, which clearly has not made it into the widespread literature quite yet, although for decades even Sardinia travel guides have mentioned a possible relationship with the Shardana.

One of the problems is that the long uncontested scientific authority in nuragic history, Giovanni Lilliu (the archeologist who uncovered the remains of the great Barumini nuragic village), instilled in the scientific community the false notion that the nuragic people did not sail, in fact, that they were "afraid of the sea", misinterpreting as a consequence the whole nuragic culture and history, and clearly denying the association of Sardinia with the Shardana, People of the Sea (also called in the egyptian inscriptions "People of the Islands of the West", and "People of the Islands of the Great Green" - i.e., the Western Mediterranean).

Giovanni Lilliu wrote his most authoritative book in 1963, when little scientific evidence was available on neolitic and paleolitic Sardinia. He is now over 90, and has only admitted some of his mistakes, though commenting a recent re-edition of the book he said "mine is an historical interpretation, not a technical one", in a clear attempt to justify the descrepancy of his theories with the scientific evidence that has emerged since.

There is much evidence, in fact, proving that the ancient Sardinians were actively sailing across the whole Mediterranean Sea, and which connects them with the Shardana. For example: - Cycladic statues: showing not only "stunning similarity" (as generally reported, without any additional comment) with Sardinian marble statues dating back to the 5th millennium BC, but an unmistakable common identity (even more so in the less known male figurines, showing soldiers carrying the same dagger as nuragic bronzetti, the famous bronze votive statues found in nuraghi all over Sardinia). - Nuragic ships, (hundreds of bronze votive ships found in Sardinia) found depicted in pottery from Skyros and in a Phoenician relief. These ships are very similar to those depicted in the Medinet Habu sea battle. - Unit-size Bronze ingots found all over the Mediterranean Sea and in nuragic forge-shops and minerary sites - Nuragic Bronzetti, showing Sardinian soldiers with the horned helmets and round shields, very distinctive (in fact, unique in the ancient mediterranean cultures), which, again, match the depiction of Shardana soldiers in Egyptian records. - The Nora Inscription, found in southern Sardinia, reports in phoenician letters the words "B SHRDN", "In Shardana"

The only argument, though strongly held by some, against the connection of nuragic bronze statues with the matching features found elsewhere in the mediterranean is that the bronze statues have been dated (so far) between the 9th and 5th century BC. This is clearly not a good argument, for several reasons: - if the dating is correct, bronze was used to forge the statues after the iron age had begun in the mediterranean sea, probably showing a "fallback" use of the minerary resources and metallurgic skills. However, the features are identical and the style very similar to those represented in marble statues dating back to 5th millennium thru the 2nd, showing that the bronze statues may represent historical and mytological figures (in fact, four-eyed soldiers and mytological animal figures are often represented). - the bronze statues were largely found to have a votive function in the southern part of the island of Sardinia, where most nuraghi seem to have been completely destroyed by some natural disaster (likely an inundation or flooding of the Campidano plane which occurred around 1000 BC) - only 60 out of an accounted 8000 nuraghi (and an estimated 12000 - an incredible defense network of towers with each having a direct line of sight with 1 to 3 other nuraghi!) in Sardinia have been at least partially excavated, which suggests that much more evidence is waiting to be uncovered. Moreover, most of the 500+ bronzetti were not recovered in-situ, making an accurate dating very hard.

Problems of the Shardana-Sardinia hypothesis

There is still few high-quality academic literature (as most of the articles of wilkipedia should be bases on "academic literature" available on the topic, due to the very few valid elements available; in the eyes of some students, most of what recently published seems to be more related to local nationalistic or however political purposes (which are?). Perhaps, the most serious discussions might regard some hypotheses that have been proposed about the supposedly related origins of Vikings' ships.(the most serious discussion about how the shardana (2500 bc till 1200 bc) had contacts with the vikings (700-880 ca).

This theory has however been discredited by some authors.

Your sources, please

Some authors? Who? Why do not you write your sources? Everybody knows that the Etruscan language gave origin to the Runic language. So, why we cannot accept the Shardana influence? There were many contacts between the Sardinians and the Etruscans during the 1st millennium BCE, and the Sardinians/Shardanas could have influenced the "viking" culture (meaning the culture of the ancient folks of Scandinavia, of course!) by the Etruscans. Besides reading: "Shardana i Principi di Dan" by Leonard Melis take a look at this link: "Alla diffusione dell’alfabeto etrusco si deve l’origine alle Rune, diffuse prevalentemente in Svezia (Sweden), ma anche in Danimarca (Denmark), Norvegia (Norway), alcune sulle isole della Frisia, una sessantina nel Regno unito (in U.K.) e 6 (tra le più antiche) in Romania (carried by Goths)." The Etruscan influence is a fact. http://www.associazioneozone.net/territorio/ricerca-e-valorizzazione/articolo-desempio/ --Billy 19:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

No evidence

Because of disinformation, I cut the article. I am reporting here the lines I deleted.

"The Shardana ultimately derive from Ionia, in the central west coast of Anatolia, from which they migrated to Sardinia."

Archaeologically speaking there is no evidence that they were Ionians. This is not proved and we can support the contrary too, that's, the Shardanas went from Sardinia to Anatolia! Read the books written by Professor Ugas Giovanni, who studied under Prof. Lilliu, the most experienced archaeologist in this field, or go directly to: http://www.sardiniapoint.it/5085.html

"Furthermore, recent studies by geneticists on the DNA of inhabitants of the inner areas of the island confirm the presence of elements which are in common with those of people from Anatolia, namely y-haplogroup G. These theoretical coincidences (enforced, as said, by linguistic considerations) could allow one to assume that a people of skilled sailors left the Eastern Mediterranean and established themselves in Sardinia."

Again, it does not demonstrate their origin, nor that they were "oriental" folks. Genetically and linguistically speaking other elements can be found and work as a common denominator between the Shardanas/Sardinians and, for example, the folks of the Basque countries. Language and DNA should be considered as interesting coincidences or as a proof of influence, not as a proof of their birthplace. Also we don't know when this influence started (before during or after the Phoenician Era, the Roman Age, Bisantium etc... when?)

"They very probably would have encountered some resistance on their way there. It is also possible that they were explorers. If so, it is likely that only a warrior people like the Shardana could have organised such an expedition."

In fact, this is possible. If we consider the stone and bronze statues of the XIII-VIII century BCE, the weapons, the buildings etc. we can find more coincidences in Sardinia than in Anatolia! In conclusion, we would be obliged to claim that the Shardanas were western folks, not oriental ones.

Read http://www.sardiniapoint.it/5087.html and page http://www.repubblica.it/online/cultura_scienze/mediterraneo/uno/uno.html --Billy 20:50, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Billy, these articles are in Italian. Can you provide a rough translation for tose of us who cannot speak or read this language. John D. Croft 12:11, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Billy, could you elaborate on these genetic similarities between the people of Sardinia and the Basques? I find this very interesting as recent genetic testing the seeks to explore the history of the peoples of Neolithic Sardinia has yielded four clusters that match closely with people who are of Iberian ancestry with possible connections to the Basque. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.35.84.36 (talk) 19:44, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Sherden/Sheriden Redirect

I think Sherden/Sheriden should redirect to this page as well. I was looking for this page last week but couldn't find it until i stumbled upon it today. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.211.249.230 (talk) 19:43, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

Semitic Sharden

I have deleted the discussion on Semitic Sharden from the page (as it is more speculative and not in suitable encyclopedia format), and included it here so it does not get lost. Hopefully it can be reworked and some mention then made in the page. John D. Croft 04:37, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

---

SEMITIC SHARDANA, "Peoples of the Sea"

- The people who created the thousands of nuraghi, cone shaped structures that have become the symbol of Sardinia, have been the subject of a good deal of speculation. A book recommended to me by sardinian scholars, -LEONARD MELIS, "SHARDANA I POPOLI DEL MARE", has been helpful because of its extensive documentation. The people known as "peoples of the sea", according to Melis, are the shardana,, who gave Sardinia its name. The shardana were semites, whom Melis identifies as the lost tribe of Dan, a semitic tribe who venerated a dark mother. Fleeing a three hundred year famine in Ur (Mesopotamia) the shardana expanded after 2300-2000 BCE into the anatolian peninsula, then into central and northern Europe, leaving clues to their presence in names; e.g., along the Danube (Dan) and the Dnieper (Dn) rivers, into the Baltic and Scandinavia, and into Ireland ("Danny Boy"). Another group of these semitic shardana went south to Syria and the Dead Sea, then into Greece, Crete, Sicily, Corsica, and Sardinia (where they settled). and thence, in a reprise of early african migrations , to the northern coast of Africa. According to Melis, the shardana arrived in Sardinia 2300 – 2000 BCE, about the same time they arrived in Tuscany and Latium on the mainland of Italy,as well as on the Balearic islands off Spain, and on Crete and Cyprus. For this essay, it is sufficient to note that these semites, like everyone else, were african in origin, and revered a woman divinity. The woman divinity of the shardana is glimpsed in bronze age cruciform figurines of a female and in many statuettes offering her nurturing breasts- - figurines very similar to those on other african migration paths in Europe. The "peoples of the sea"/shardana have been described as violent; but this is unclear because the 7000 bee-hive shaped megalithic structures (nuraghi) associated with shardana settlements have no evidence of weapons. The shardana are enigmatic; their warrior shields resemble women's breasts, with nipples. Icons of shardana warriors feature four eyes; Dianne Jenett pointed out to me that four eyes are characteristic of the earlier eye goddess of Tell Brak of Iraq (ca. 3000 BCE)(3) The point at hand for mediterranean, sardinian, sicilian, italian , and world history, is that the shardana, in Sardinia, an island which archeologists regard as a museum of the prehistory of Europe, venerated a dark mother, whom Melis calls Mater Mediterranea. The connection with african beliefs is suggested in that menhirs and dolmens were central icons of nuragic communities. Figurines of women in nuragic communities hold the solar disk, symbol of african veneration of the sun; hold their breasts in an african nurturant gesture, and there is evidence that they engaged in african water rituals. . Nuraghi of Sardinia resemble sanctuaries in Zimbabwe in Africa. In Sardinia, the belief in the dark mother and her values appears to be continuous from prehistory to the present. Ancient caves where early african migrants lived were later called domus de Janus by the romans; today these caves are popularly considered dwellings of women with supernatural powers. In Sardinia the early christian church at Saccargia was originally megalith in form . Inside the church at Saccargia (rebuilt in the middle ages),we saw two black madonnas. - for more details: Lucia Chiavola Birnbaum Dark Mother, Dark Others, and a new World Case of Sardinia Societes of Peace: 2nd World Congress on Matriarchal Studies San Marcos and Austin, Tezas (USA) - September 29/30 - ½ Otctober 2005 WEBSITE: http://www.second-congress-matriarchal-studies.com/birnbaum.html

Filitosa and Iroxi, or: on Weapons and Armour

it is completely wrong the phrase in which one asserts that: "Despite these considerations, in Sardinia, the dating of Bronze Weapons and armour similar to the Sharden is only found several centuries after the period of the Peoples of the Sea. If the theory that the Sharden moved to Sardinia after their defeat by Rameses III, then we must assume that the finds in Sardinia are survivals of earlier"

who has written this has no knowledge of the archaeological site of Filitosa and what the scolars assert about it. The site of Filitosa is dated 1800-1600 a.C. It is composed of statues- menhir in which are represented warriors with horned helmets,armours and swords totally similar to the Sherden's ones. Above all the represented armor to Filitosa is much similar one to that of the shardana warriors of medinet abu http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/442/61museofilitosace3.jpg http://www.flickr.com/photos/7481427@N05/1594800081/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/martine_et_christian/1393050158/in/photostream/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by DedaloNur (talk • contribs) 18:07, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

In Sardinia in the sanctuary of Iroxi, have been found tens of arsenicated copper triangular shaped blade swords. They are dated 1800 1600 a.C.(Giovanni Ugas) and are very similar to the triangular shape swords of the Sherden and the one of the warriors of Filitosa, that you can see below from the Cagliari museum: http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=immagine336pn0sp1.jpg

The statues of Filitosa are more ancient than the Corsica's "Torreana" civilization.This one is strictly connected with the Nuragic civilization, as they demonstrate the place name around the site of Filitosa. As an example the city of Serdena/Sertena or the river Serdena.

Filitosa statues have been found as re-used material to build Corsica towers, in the same way sardinian staues -menhir have been re-used to build some nuraghi and graves, the so- called "Giant tombs" (i.e. Aiodda-Nurallao). —Preceding unsigned comment added by DedaloNur (talk • contribs) 17:50, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

That's interesting, but do you have any reliable sources, which in this case would probably be publications by archaeologists. 19:15, 24 December 2008 (UTC)dougweller (talk)

Hallo Dougweller, Hallo Dougweller, Giovanni Ugas speaks about the sanctuary of Iroxi in this book: http://www.unilibro.it/find_buy/Scheda/libreria/autore-ugas_giovanni/sku-850526/la_tomba_dei_guerrieri_di_decimoputzu_.htm

Decimoputzu, is the town in which the sanctuary of Iroxi rises. In the sanctuary of Iroxi, Giovanni Ugas has found numerous swords connected to the culture of Bonnannaro pottery(phase 1). Swords of the same type have been found at Maracalagonis. Furthermore, comparison has been made with the swords made at Filitosa, with the ones represented at Medinet Abu and with the swords of the culture of El Argar in Spain, thinking them all identical. The "culture of Bonnannaro" is a pre-nuragic culture dated 1800-1600 a.C.(or 1900 a.C)it occupied the whole of Sardinia. Bonnannaro is a place name of a town near Sassari; Decimoputzu is near Cagliari. The culture of Bonnannaro is contemporary to the presence in Sardinia of the Bell-Beaker culture (in Sardinia around 2100-1800 a.C.). Sardinians of the Bell-Beaker culture left for Sicily, probably from southern Sardinia, and occupied western Sicily. We can say this because in that part of western Sicily the Bell-Beaker culture findings can only be associated to the typical pre-nuragic tombs called domus de janas.

http://www.ugr.es/~arqueologyterritorio/Artics4/Artic4_2.htm from the fusion of these populations of warriors, navigators and metal seekers (prospectors), later emerged the Nuragic Civilization

A few kilometers away from Decimoputzu is the archaeological site of Uta. The Nuragic bronze statues of the "Uta style" are considered the most ancient in the whole of Sardinia. Those are also the ones most similar to the Shardana warriors’ ones.

In an other locality of Decimoputzu (Monti sa Idda) but in a "Nuragic cupboard" numerous swords have been found. But they are successive in age to those of Iroxi. Lilliu at page 122 of "La Civiltà Nuragica" speaks about bronze swords of Mycenaean tradition (1230-1100 b.C.approximately), and Iberian (before IX b.C.). download the pdf http://www.sardegnadigitallibrary.it/index.php?xsl=626&id=581 Of the same age in southern Sardinia (Nuraghe Antigori) the most ancient Iron object of the western Mediterranean, dated 1200 a.C —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.10.129.138 (talk) 10:47, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Ugas is certainly a reliable source, but does he mention the Sherden? dougweller (talk) 12:26, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Hallo Dougweller and happy Christmas, Ugas confronts the shape of the swords in the book that I have indicated regarding the grave of Decimoputzu (Iroxi), and mentions therefore also the swords of the sherden. Unfortunately I do not have the book with me, therefore I cannot point out the page. If I remember well, they have also been compared to those named as representatives of the islands of the "great green", shown in some Ancient Egyptian graves, orobably of Tebe. But do not take in account of the last detail. I could try to recover the book in a library

However on the single base of the swords found in Sardinia, of the statues of Filitosa but also Laconi, and the citation of Lilliu, as well as that of the iron find at Antigori, what you have written is uncorrect.

I must specify a thing better. The Bonnannaro culture is considered a successive phase of the Bell-Beaker culture, in fact it is known as Bell-Beaker culture B. Bye

—Preceding unsigned comment added by DedaloNur (talk • contribs) 16:52, 25 December 2008 (UTC) 

I don't know exactly what you think is incorrect, but the main question about Ugas is what specifically he says about the Sherden, do you have a quote? dougweller (talk) 19:16, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

is incorrect,that "the dating of Bronze Weapons and armour similar to the Sharden is only found several centuries after the period of the Peoples of the Sea."

For me it is this the main question.

The metallurgy in Corsica and Sardinia was very developed from long time and Camps in the site of Terrina (Aleria, Corsica)has revealed an arsenical copper metallurgy that on the basis of calibrated radiocarbon dates, covers the second half of the fourth millennium (Camps, 1988 pag.129-130). He,on the basis of the greater antiquity of the metallurgical activity to Tureen asserts that the metallurgy in Corsica was at the leading edge regarding the Italian one . (Camps, Gabriel, pag. 87, 1988, Préhistoire d' une île. Les origines de la Race, Editions Errance, Paris.)

At the line 10 and forward, page 255, in the book "L'alba dei nuraghi"by G.Ugas -2005, you can read: "and they clasp wide triangular swords to double-bladed with hollow-hilt and lunar-knob, (tav XVI, 4), identical to those of the Shardana swordsman engaged to Kadesh and above all of the menhir of Filitosa and the warrior of S.Iroxi"

However in reference to the metallurgy I think that you are not hold in regard Lilliu quoting on the bronze swords. Lilliu is reliable in the same way as Ugas.

Therefore, it's my opinion that, you must modify the theory on the Sardinian and Corsican metallurgy run and what you deduce by means of it about the arrival of the Shardana in Sardinia and Corsica. Bye

hallo, I gave you a quote: nothing to say ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DedaloNur (talk • contribs) 12:27, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

More than other, the phrase is incorrectly quoted, as it derives, form a writing of Lucia Vagnetti: "Moreover, in regard to the identification of the Sherden with warriors of Sardinian origin, a further difficulty arises from the almost complete lack of evidence for armor and weapons in Sardinia in the local Middle and Late Bronze Ages".

Vagnetti is not stating, as the wikipedia article seems to suggest, that in the Sardinia of XIV to XII century BC there were other kinds of armours or weapons than those of the Sherden, and that those of the Sherden replaced them centuries lather, but that no samples of sardinean armours and weapons of those centuries survived until now, so a comparison is impossibile. Being the Iroxi swords, as the similar sword of Marcalagonis, dated to around 1600 BC, and the Mt. Idda swords dated by most to X century BC (but they could be older if, as some scholar suggested, they were scrap metal to be recast), her statement was correct. However, a similar argumentum ex silentio is very weak. Is like saying that, if we do not find the skeletons of Sardinians of those same centuries (as infact we didn't find them), then the Sardinians were immortal.

More probably, during those centuries the Sardinians adopted a funeral ceremony that did not include the preservation of the body or his burial with the weapons. Weapons that, as suggested by the same site of Mount Idda, were reused and recast.

Furthermore, is difficult to understand of what kind of "weapons and armour" the authors were referring. In Egyptian paintings, the peoples of the sea are all armed in the same way, with a sword almost identical to the mycenaean horned sword, round shield, and, when depicted, the same kind of armor. Only the helmet (horned for the Sherden) sets them apart, and the only depictions of horned helmets found in quantity in ancient times were, those relating to the Sherden in Egypt, and the Sardinian bronze statuettes. The connection with the Anatolia is even more tenuous, being based almost solely on the fact that the city of Sardis could, or could not, have been founded before 1000 BC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.43.227.148 (talk) 14:35, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

The previous comment should have been sufficient to remove that entire ballast (I mean the whole paragraph quoted here below) from the article. Now it's an unsourced paragraph that makes no logical sense whatsoever:

"Weapons and armour similar to those of the Sherden were found in Sardinia dating only to several centuries after the period of the Sea Peoples. If the theory that the Sherden moved to Sardinia only after their defeat by Ramesses III is true, then it could be inferred from this that the finds in Sardinia are survivals of earlier types of weapons and armour. On the other hand, if the Sherden only moved into the Western Mediterranean in the ninth century, associated perhaps with the movement of early Etruscans and even Phoenician seafaring peoples into the Western Mediterranean at that time, it would remain unknown where they were located between the period of the Sea Peoples and their eventual appearance in Sardinia."

Either the wording is very awkward, or the whole concept is illogical. Or both. What does it want to say? Case A: Move to Sardinia sometime after 1175 defeat (so C12, C11, C10) - the finds are some kind of "living fossils", i.e. by then (C9 BCE, age of oldest finds) ancient types of weapons & armour, but still in use by the immigrants? Then say it clearer. Or case B: Move to Sardinia in C9 BCE - same as before; what's the distinction between A and B? Just that the "Sea People" immigrants' gear, which they brought along at their fresh arrival, hadn't evolved for some 300 years? Or does it want (and not manage) to say that in case A: the finds are of local, non-Sherden types of weapons, that were old-fashioned, but unrelated to the new arriving tribes? What is meant by "survivals of earlier types"? This whole thing sounds more like an attempt to destroy the theory at hand ("Eastern origin theory"), than to support it - and that's the job of the next paragraph, "Western origin theory", not of this one!

A possible fix, IF it fits the now hidden meaning: not "only after their defeat...", but "immediately after their defeat...", IF the theory supports arrival in C12. But is this what the (not indicated) sources say?

I give up, it's a mess. The whole paragraph should be removed. It's that bit about not knowing "where they were located between the period of the Sea Peoples and their eventual appearance in Sardinia" that is worth preserving, but source it and fit it into a coherent phrase, please! Arminden (talk) 18:03, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

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