Talk:Pedro Álvares Cabral

Portuguese

in the early life section it is mentioned that "cabral translates to goats in English". this is not correct. "cabra" means goat, ok, but the name "cabral" although derived from and related to "cabra" doesn't mean goats.--192.104.37.15 (talk) 11:05, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree. "Cabral" is an adjective that would translate to "goatish" in English. Perhaps it would be better to give an explanation (e.g., " 'cabral' means 'pertaining to goats' ") than to try to translate.85.138.101.39 (talk) 00:54, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

The suffix "-al" is also used to mean "several" or "many" or "series of". Literally, Cabral means "several Goats". This is way the are Portuguese words such as "cafezal", "laranjal", "arrozal", (to describe coffe, orange and rice plantations, respectively) etc... --Lecen (talk) 13:51, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Wouldn't -al be a location where these things are found? Cabral would be the "place of goats". (like plantations being "the place" of coffee, oranges and rice). Portuguese surnames typically end with topoynyms (locations). Walrasiad (talk) 15:45, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it could be also that. See the Portuguese Wiktionary:

2. Pertencente a um lugar específico: tropical (belonging to an specific place: tropical)

3. Coletivo de: bananal (collective of: many bananas)

In this particular case, that is, the name "Cabral", the meaning is "many Goats", or "several goats", pertaining quantity, not a place. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 16:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

It's practically the same thing. "Many goats" are only "many" if they are found togther at "a place". Again, I remind that Portuguese surnames are almost always toponyms (locations), e.g. Silva (forest), Pereira (pear grove), Fonseca (dry well), Miranda (look-out point), etc. It is highly unusual to be named after animals - except if one's ancestor physically looked like a particular animal (which wouldn't be plural, e.g. Coelho, not Coelhos). In traditional Portuguese surname construction, toponyms were used as clarifiers of patronyms. So Pedro Alvares Cabral => He is Pedro, son of Alvaro ("Which Alvaro?", "The one who lives by that place where goats gather/are gathered"). So my guess is Cabral would be a reference to a goat pasture or a goat ranch. Walrasiad (talk) 17:47, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

But we can not guess and add it to the article. What exactly do you propose? --Lecen (talk) 19:30, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Dunno. Frankly, I'd probably just leave it be, as it currently is, and hope nobody makes a fuss. Or maybe just weaken the term "translates to" to something less strong, like "refers to" or "pertains to" or "can be traced to" or "is rooted in" goats. Walrasiad (talk) 21:35, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Ancient discovery of America?

Roman coins have been found in today's Venezuela, northwest of Brazil, presumably from ships that were carried away by storm in ancient times.

This sentence is from the section "Forerunners". It seems to be asserting that some Roman coins there suggest that ancient peoples actually sailed to the New World. Furthermore, the sentence seems to be asserting this as a fact, as though it were broadly accepted within the scientific community. Surely this must be bad sourcing..? Alex8541 (talk) 02:07, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

The sentence does not assert that ancient European contact is an established fact, merely that this is a presumptive explanation for the finds. The source is given, and is also available in English (as The Portuguese Seaborne Empire), should you wish to consult the reference. • Astynax ^talk 03:26, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Interesting. I honestly thought this was some fringe theory somebody inserted to promote a pet project. I'll check out the source. Thanks

Alex8541 (talk) 05:29, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

The practice had obvious pitfalls

I deleted again the sentence "The practice had obvious pitfalls, since authority could as easily be given to highly incompetent and unfit people as it could fall to talented leaders such as Afonso de Albuquerque or Dom João de Castro." My previous deletion was reverted by Lecen. I do not want to start a reversion battle, but this statement, as applied to the practice of appointing noble people for any posts, is a very general, not very deep, a-historical remark about the role of nobility, which has no place in an article about P.A. Cabral. The opinions about Afonso de Albuquerque and João de Castro are also too PoV-ish, even if they come from Boxer, and surely unfitting for an article about Cabral. Articles about the Brazilian and Portuguese history -- not the articles about other European colonialist countries and their former colonies -- are full of this kind of bullshit, and we should all unite to remove it. Velho (talk) 22:13, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Cabral was the first European to voyage to Brazil but not its "discoverer" because it was already inhabited

User Lecen keeps reverting my accurate minor correction to the article so here's a record for any future reality-based revision. Cabral didn't "discover" Brazil. The place that became Brazil was already inhabited for thousands of years when Cabral became the first recorded European to voyage there.

My accurate correction: Cabral "was a Portuguese nobleman, military commander, navigator and explorer regarded as the first European to voyage to Brazil."

The inaccurate reversion repeatedly promoted by Lecen: "was a Portuguese nobleman, military commander, navigator and explorer regarded as the discoverer of Brazil."

I'm assuming this edit will be signed automatically with my IP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.93.148.34 (talk) 12:33, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Section Return to Europe

The Return to Europe section describes a personal meeting between Cabral and Vespucci, and also provides the dates of Cabral's arrival and departure with a link to "Bueno, Eduardo (1998). A viagem do descobrimento: a verdadeira história da expedição de Cabral" book (by the way, the author is a supporter of the idea that Cabral discovered America not by chance). So: 1) at best only the fastest ship arrived at Bezeguiche island on June 2, and Cabral himself arrived no earlier than mid-June (or even early July - see: McClymont. Pedraluarez Cabral 1914); 2) Vespucci met only two of Cabral's ships witn captains Diogo Dias and Nicolau Coelho (see: Vigneras. The discovery of South America and the Andalusian voyages 1976); 3) Vespucci and Cabral did not personally cross paths on this island. The expedition with Vespucci's participation sailed before Cabral arrived (see: Greenlee. Voyage Of Pedro Alvares Cabral To Brazil And India 1938). So Vespucci could at best tell other participants about the idea of ​​a new continent, although apparently he simply wrote it down in his diary. -- Karavadgoo (talk) 17:15, 16 August 2024 (UTC)