Talk:Hook turn

Use outside Melbourne

I've been trying to find out if the hook turn is/has been used outside of Melbourne. From some discussion here, it seems that:

• the hook turn is (or was at least recently) used by busses in Adelaide - at at least one intersection

IMO, possible considering that buses in Melbourne also use hook turns at some non-hook turn intersections. e.g. At the intersection of Hoddle St & Victoria Pde, southbound buses on hoddle st use the leftmost lane to make a right-turn (to head eastbound) on Victoria Pde. Jackk 22:09, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

i'm not sure how someone travelling south turns right and ends up travelling east...? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.171.85.67 (talk) 12:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

• all right turns in Victoria, possibly also some other states, were hook turns prior to the turn indicator light

Untrue. If you have look at the Vicroads website, you can find copies of the actual road laws adopted by parliament. What was true was that some time ago (recently - i think it was true as late as the 70s), Victorian road law required that left-turning vehicles yield to all traffic, including oncoming traffic making right turns, even at Uncontrolled intersections. Jackk 22:09, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

That law changed early 1990s. This left turn rule had nothing to do with hook turns whatsoever. Format 03:26, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that was actually the case. While the VicRoads law that you cite is correct, it is for a different thing (giving way to left instead of right turners). Both my father and grandfather swear that hook turns were used at all intersections in "the olden days". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.185.40.37 (talk) 04:17, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

• bicyclists can do a hook turn wherever they want, for their own safety

True. Already included in the article. Jackk 22:09, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• hook turns were trialled in at least one place in Melbourne outside the CBD very recently

South Melbourne's clarendon st. still has hook turns in place, however they're going to be removed shortly: from memory, within the next 6 months. Jackk 22:09, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Trying to verify and find out more... T.PK 09:51, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Unfortuantely, I have never found out such information either, and its origin is therefore a mistery to me, I have been puzzled, for example why North American cities where you still see "streetcars" don't have a drive-on-right version (left-turn from right) but instead simply halt left turning cars when a tram approaches (inconsistant as it may be), I wish it were considered in Toronto, Canada. Is it because it was invented in Australia and "Australian ideas" are often ignored elsewhere in the world.Myrtone (the strict Australian wikipedian)(talk)

There is a hook turn (for trucks) at the corner of Charleston Rd and Nolan St in Bendigo, Vic. --Richmeister 09:49, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Depending on your definition of a hook turn, there is at least one in Beijing, China -- see http://davidj.richardson.name/japan-china/images/435.html -- note that this is a T-intersection, not a cross-intersection. David J Richardson 08:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

re Controversy section

I don't think the "Controversy" section is really appropriate for this article, unless we can actually verify the information.

I'd also argue that statements such as "Hook turns are, in reality, one of the easiest right turns to execute, as the drivers do not have to judge a gap between cars coming the other direction" are completely POV. I happen to also think that it's totally incorrect: to navigate a hook turn properly, a safe driver has to monitor more potential hazards. You have to watch for traffic from the rear, oncoming traffic, traffic from the left side, pedestrians on your right side, emergency vehicles and trams: the latter three of which have absolute right-of-way.

I'll delete the controversy section in a few days, unless there are any objections. Cheers. Jackk 22:09, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Box turns are only perscribed at controlled intersections, so I think you should rephrase it rather than delete it.Myrtone (the strict Australian wikipedian)(talk)

For what it is worth they are not harder, there is little to judge as the driver waits for the traffic light on the road being turned in to turn green. By then, everything else (other traffic, pedestrians) will have stopped. Format (talk) 06:02, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The Controversy section contains unreferenced information, it should therefore be removed.Special:Contributions/ ([[User talk:|talk]]) 14:29, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

There are currently sections on 'Reasons for Use', 'Australian Usage Details', 'Other Vehicles', 'Controversy' and 'History'. These can probably all be merged into a single section on either Usage or History. I'm happy to do this in a couple of days if there are no objections. -Paperclip Maximiser (talk) 06:22, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Possibly region-centric phrases

"A hook turn is a special right-turn manouvre required in parts of Melbourne, Australia. A hook turn is where a motorist turns right at an intersection from the leftmost lane of traffic." I know that Taiwan with right-hand traffic requires motorcyclists to make two-step left turn where Image:TW-Art065.1.gif is posted. Isn't it a hook turn? I wonder whether the opening sentence of the article is region-centric.--Jusjih 16:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Similarity to a New Jersey Jughandle?

I am interested in this setup, which seems to be a condensed New Jersey jughandle, except that a hook turn is for driving on the left-side of the road. Is this comparison correct? --Thisisbossi 01:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so. The jughandle looks like a loop-around, where there's no looping done here -- so the comparison is hook to loop, which isn't right. Dysprosia 01:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

What I meant by "condensed" is that it's still seems to be the same concept of breaking apart from the mainline on the opposite side from which you intend to turn; then completing your maneuever as if it were a "through" movement, of sorts. --Thisisbossi 04:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

There's still a loop which you have to execute from my understanding of the jughandle, which isn't present in the hook turn. Dysprosia 04:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Functionally, it is similar to a jughandle, except jughandles get their own light cycle, you don't go through the yellow/red. I think the listing of Rt. 1 in NJ is incorrect. From my recollection, that area has a few standard highway junctions, and the rest are jughandles. The defining features of a hook turn, based on my reading of the article, are lining up in the lane opposite to the turn you're making, and the lack of a dedicated light cycle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.132.221.211 (talk) 17:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Loose Ends

As a Canadian driver I'm unfamiliar with the hook turn and have read the article three times to try to understand it. I think my only questions are 1) Am I correct when I assume that only one or two cars can make the turn with each cycle of the light and 2) Where do additional drivers wait if they are the third or fourth person who wants to make the turn?

Minshullj 02:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The first vehicle preparing to turn is required to move as far as practicable into the intersection (not just half way). Any subsequent vehicles are required to form a queue behind the first vehicle. All queued vehicles (whatever number fits) within the intersection then make the turn. If you look at both of the first 2 procedure photos closely, you can see that, in that particular instance, two cars followed by a truck and then another car (4 vehicles in that case) made a hook turn . We will need to modify the text to clarify this.--Melburnian 03:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

There are relatively few hook turn intersections in Melbourne. Those intersections designated for the hook turn are generally on large, wide roads, so many vehicles can easily queue, say eight cars. Format (talk) 22:51, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Having visited Melbourne and carried out several hook turns (many of them just for fun) I want to add that while they are not ideal traffic movements, they are extremely practical solutions.

Why? The first reason is not to impede movement of trams.

Melbourne's central business district is built on a grid system. Many streets have two tram lanes (in the centre) and two traffic lanes in both directions at either side. Most traffic (in my experience) is travelling straight on at these junctions. Intersections with lots of right-turning traffic will be set up differently. The hook turn accommodates the small number of cars wishing to turn right.

I found most drivers were cautious and courteous at these junctions. Once the lights changed to amber and red, the queued right-turning traffic would finish the turn. I did notice that some right-turning drivers tended to queue in any available space and at strange angles. This worked as long as everyone moved slowly when completing the turn.

The main advantage is that no right-turn time needs to be allowed in the traffic light sequencing and thus straight on traffic gets a large share of the time. Depending on the legal changes as to when the end of the hook turn can be made, it would probably be a good idea to increase the time at which all lights are red enabling the turns to be made.

The other advantage (as has been mentioned) is that no judgement is required to find a gap in the oncoming traffic. Sometimes, in normal turns, drivers can see a suitable gap, go for it, only to be met by a crossing pedestrian as they complete the turn. If they yield to the pedestrian, they block oncoming traffic which had priority. This doesn't happen with the hook turn. David in dublin 16:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Palatine Road, northeastern Illinois

I don't know the history of it, but Palatine Road in the northern suburbs of Chicago has had hook turns (not by name) for decades, from just east of Rand Road in Arlington Heights all the way past Milwaukee Avenue. In the middle lanes (two each direction), you can only continue straight when the light is green. If you want to turn into a driveway, turn either left or right onto a crossroad, or make a U-turn, you have to get into the frontage lanes (also two each direction, separated from the express lanes by a median strip except for occasional "exits"). The frontage lanes—i.e. the turn lanes—have their own separate light cycle after the crossroad and before the main express lanes. I hadn't seen this setup anywhere else, but it seems pretty clear that the only difference between this and the Melbourne hook turn lanes are the extra concrete divider and of course the right/left swap. /blahedo (t) 06:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, perusing some satellite views, it looks like the express lane section of Palatine Road has just six intersections, of which three are true expressway-ramp style and the other three are hook turn intersections. (All the other crossroads in this area dead end into the frontage road.) Here is a satellite view of one of the hook turn intersections, at Palatine and Wheeling Roads. /blahedo (t) 06:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Palatine Road is a junior expressway

I've never seen a hook turn intersection in Illinois

I've never seen a hook turn intersection in Illinois, nor have I heard of one, nor was any such thing discussed in my Illinois Driver's Ed programme, the Illinois "Rules of the Road" pamphlet, or on the Illinois Written Road Test. Moreover, Illinois law -- 625 ILCS 5/Ch. 11 Art. VIII -- prohibits hook turn manouvres.

If there were hook turn intersections in Illinois, here would be the requirements (and yes, I'm translating for the fact that in the US vehicles drive on the right side of the road): 1. It would have to be a 4-way intersection controlled by a standard traffic signal without any turning arrows. 2. There would be no left-turning lanes at the center of the road. 3. Instead, there would be a right-turning lane that permitted both left and right turns. There would be at least one other lane which permited motorists to drive straight ahead, but this would be the only turning lane. 4. No U-Turns would be permitted at the intersection (as is normal in Illinois).

If a motorist wanted to use the turning lane -- located on the far-right side of the road -- to make a left turn, they would have to enter the turning lane at the far-right side of the road and roll forward to approximately half-way into the intersection. The driver would then have to wait after the traffic light turned red, and proceed only once the traffic light for the crossroad turned green.

That's a hookturn.

I'm writing this from my house in the west side of Chicago.. and I'm flying to Melborne -- my birthplace -- tomorrow. How about that!

Jackk 02:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

"make less right-hand drive specific"

This is a strange description for an edit that took text that was not at all right-hand drive specific, and made parts of it to be left-hand-drive specific. I'm also slightly puzzled as to why you changed a <gallery> section—lightweight and easy to understand and edit—and made it into a wikitable. And, for that matter, why this article needs to include so much Melbourne-specific explanatory information. /blahedo (t) 01:02, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps specific wasn't the best choice of word; you mentioned with priority right-hand drive. This is fine if this was a particularly American manoeuvre, but the evidence that I have seen suggests that this is predominantly a manoeuvre performed in Melbourne, Australia, and Australia uses left-hand drive. Thus it is preferrable to be left-hand drive specific (by analogy, consider an article about something that is predominantly British but using American terminology). This also in part addresses your third point; why delete perfectly valid content that is regional specific? Just as long as we make clear regional specific details, there is no problem. Details about the manoeuvre specific to other countries can be added as well.

Australia uses right-hand drive, not left-hand drive.Eregli bob (talk) 14:36, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Addressing your second point, the gallery images by default are small. Illustrating the details of the manoeuvre clearly is important. HTH Dysprosia 07:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Use of terms "left-hand drive" and "right-hand drive"?

It has always been my understanding that these terms refer to the side of the vehicle where the driver sits (and where the steering wheel is located) — NOT to the side of the street where vehicles are driven. Thus, for example, traffic in the USA and Canada uses the right-hand side of the road, and as a result, almost all vehicles in the USA and Canada have left-hand drive (NOT right-hand drive). See the article "Driving on the left or right" for more on this. I'm not sure what (if any) adjective properly refers to the side of the road where vehicles are driven. It may be best to rephrase the article along the lines "Australia, where the rule is to drive on the left", etc. But saying that Australia is a "left-hand-drive country" is simply wrong. Richwales 17:08, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. Dysprosia 04:00, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Common in Belgium? When was that?

"* Belgium - Hook turns are common in Belgium. They are used as part of the general traffic management and are not particularly associated with tram routes."

I have deleted this. though conciseness is a virtue, this is just too much of an unsupported blanket assertion. I have lived in Brussels for 15 years and know of no instances of what is described below. Of course there are reserved left-turning lanes, but none that I can think of that are on the *right* of the straight-ahead lanes. Even the voies latérales are normally signalled in phase with the central through lanes. I'm afraid we'll need an example. (In this I am considering the voies latérales to be separate roads, not part of the same road.) TobyJ (talk) 08:39, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Hook turns used to be common several decades ago in Belgium (where, in case you doubt, cars, buses, etc., drive on the right side of the road), but the road sign warning about them has been retired, and IIUC road-maintaining authorities have long been forbidden to set up or keep crossings with hook turns. Nowadays, left turns have to be made from the left lane(s) going in the concerned direction. What may happen (assuming a two-way road) is left-turn lanes near the middle of the road (possibly with tram-only lanes between them, or, before reaching the crossing proper, a central berm), and straight-ahead lanes (coming and going) on both sides of that. This way left-turning traffic stops in a more or less "reserved" area near the centre of the crossing, and straight-ahead traffic goes around it with little hindering.

Traffic lights sometimes have an "all red" phase of significant duration, to allow left-turning vehicles to clear the way. (At other places they don't but ought to.) Or sometimes there are arrow-shaped traffic lights turning red or green separately for vehicles going in different directions.

Oh, I have no citations for what I'm asserting here but it ought to be easy to check in the Belgian traffic code ("Code de la Route" in French, and I'm not sure of the usual Dutch ["Wegcode" maybe?] and German names). IANAL, but any Belgian lawyer, or maybe a teacher from a driving school, ought to be able to provide the necessary references (if any). — Tonymec (talk) 01:02, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Is this a hook turn?

I never imagined the idea of a hook turn could get so philosophical... TobyJ (talk) 11:32, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cooperatoby/1458617295/

Nope not a hook turn. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Timothykhoo (talk • contribs) 21:24, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

How does it work with more than 3 cars turning

How can a hook turn work if there are more than about 2 or 3 cars trying to make the turn? Unless the cars are already waiting within the intersection when the lights change to the cross street, they are going to get hit by cars going the other way.Eregli bob (talk) 14:31, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

they have to wait for the next traffic light cycle. At least the hook turns in melbourne rarely got more than 3 cars in a row for turning right (and most of the intersections are big enough for 4 cars or more, there is just the tram in the middle of the road, so a normal right turning lane is not easily possible...)

-- sic 92.229.242.102 (talk) 20:07, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Hook turn signs in Melbourne

When I was in Melbourne in Jan/Feb 2012, I didn't find a single metal hook turn sign in Melbourne (CBD), all of them where LED-animated. Does anybody have/can anybody make an icon as a replacement/addition to the article?

I lack the skills for that -- sic 92.229.242.102 (talk) 20:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Removal of 'Prevalence' section

The 'prevalence' section in this article seems to be unnecessary and largely irrelevant to the content. We don't need an exhaustive list of every place hook turns can be found and the regulations governing them. To the extent that this information is noteworthy, it can be consolidated under the 'Usage' section. Paperclip Maximiser (talk) 06:16, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Not sure how to add a citation

In the Benefits section, there's a missing citation. Here it is: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3141/2219-02

MarkinBoston (talk) 01:22, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

@MarkinBoston:  Done: I assume that this is for the seconds saved with hook turn intersections, which I also saw was in the citation provided. If you use the automatic 'add a citation' tool, you can just copy and paste a URL, DOI number or ISBN into it and it will automatically make the reference for you (just double check that everything looks right). Fork99 (talk) 01:45, 2 September 2024 (UTC)