Talk:Qilin

Qilin/Kirin

NOTE:Due to the existance of Qilin as a redirect to Kirin I was not able to easily move the Kirin page (it trips over the redirect). Rather than enlist the aid of an administrator I copy-paste moved the contents. The History of the Qilin page prior to this move will be found in the Kirin page, now a disambiguation, and similarly for the history of the talk, it is on Talk:Kirin, now a redirect to this page. Leonard G. 05:34, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

A kirin is a specifically Japanese version of the original Chinese ky-lin that is being discussed in this article. This article should be retitled, with Kirin as a redirect. Wetman 19:46, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Pictures of Japanese version are needed. Since the beast has the same characteristics in multiple cultures (if not appearance), the inclusion into a single article seems appropriate to me. Articles can become overly fragmented by cultural choices. As the two examples are chinese, perhaps the whole article could be moved to Qilin. You might want to poll the other major contributors.

Leonard G. 19:56, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'm generally against splitting and all for context myself. I didn't intend to make any hasty move myself, as I'm quite ignorant here. Wetman 20:00, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Leonard that if kirin and qilin has the same origin and base of mythology but only differ in regional appearance variation -- It is not very good to separate similar things up. A lot of redundancies will occur in kirin and qilin if they are separated. For example, the Chinese goddess of mercy Guanyin and its Japanese version (Kannon) are described on the same page.

I never saw a Japanese kirin depiction before, but according to OED, it's basically the same:

Kirin [Jap., f. Chinese (see KYLIN).], A fabulous beast of composite form, freq. portrayed in Japanese pottery and art (see quots.); = KYLIN.
1900 F. LITCHFIELD Pott. & Porc. vii. 172 Figure subjects are not common in this kind of china, but one finds representations of..the Kirin.., a monster with the body and hoofs of a deer, the tail of a bull, and a horn on his forehead.

Just for comparison, OED's entry on kylin:

Kylin, [ad. Chinese chi-lin (Wade), f. chi male + lin female.]
A fabulous animal of composite form, commonly figured on Chinese and Japanese pottery. According to the Erh Ya, it has the body of a deer, the tail of an ox, and a single horn, from which it is often called the Chinese Unicorn’ (Mayers' Chinese Reader's Man., Shanghai, 1874, 127).

As to the title, I don't feel strongly either way. But qilin is probably more suitable, even if this page describes kirin as well (not that it differs much, according to OED). Because qilin, the Chinese version, is the original "ancestor" version. --Menchi 20:53, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'll move the page if no one else does, the only question is which is the appropriate romanization in Chinese. I leave that up to those more expert in this matter. Post here, or just relocate the page. I can track down the links to avoid needed redirects where encounterd. It seems that the Kirin entry, rather than a redirect, should be a disambiguation - that way we don't have to mention beer on this page. Then we could chase down kirin links and direct them (hidden) to qilin (or whatever is chosen for this page). We still need a Kirin image - can we find anyone with this? Next time I go on tour I will post an itinerary and ask for picture requests. Now that I am editing I can recall sooo many things that I coulda, woulda, shoulda taken pictures of, but saw no need for my particular shows. Leonard G. 02:50, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

See move note at top of page Leonard G. 05:34, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I went through all links to Kirin.

• Japanese reference to Kirin beer - no change, goes to Kirin disambiguation page.
• Chinese references to Kirin - changed to Qilin
• Japanese references to Kirin beast, changed to hidden link to Qilin
• Chinese references to Kirin town - no change, goes to Kirin disambiguation page

I believe that the move is now complete. Leonard G. 06:12, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

spelling

Where does the spelling "ki'lin" come from? All other spellings is associated with which dialog it comes from except this one. Is it WG? I'd prefer the pinyin spelling. I am surprised that most mysterous spelling becomes the default spelling throughout the whole article. Kowloonese 02:24, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Kilin/giraffe text from Unicorn

The folowing was straying too far from the subject Unicorn (Wetman 17:40, 13 February 2006 (UTC)):

The qilin (麒麟, Chinese), a creature in Chinese myth, is sometimes called "the Chinese unicorn", but it is not directly related to the classical Western unicorn, having the body of a deer, the head of a lion, green scales and a long forth-curved horn. Historically in China, the word "qilin" was used to mean the giraffe. Currently, the word "kirin", in Japan, written with the same Chinese ideograms, is still used to designate the giraffe as well as the mythical creature. Curiously, the Japanese mythological creature is usually portrayed as more closely resembling the Western Unicorn than the Chinese qilin, even though based on the Chinese myth.

To User:Ksyrie re other languages

The Qilin is not "spelled" as Sabitun Sabintu, Hariharipo Hariharimo, Билигтэй Бэлэгтэй Гөрөөс, Kỳ lân, or Ki len. It is "called" those names in other languages. It is almost invariably called "Qilin", "Kirin" or "Kylin" in English.

This is the English wikipedia. Users who are interested in finding out its translation in world languages can click on the interwiki.

As a compromise, I have preserved the list of foreign language names for you. --PalaceGuard008 04:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

emm,Kỳ lân, or Ki len seems not to be able to be distinguished from Kylin, Keilun , or Kirin.BTW,I really appreciate your username.--Ksyrie 07:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:KirinGW.jpg

Image:KirinGW.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 21:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Image:DD-Dehua-Qilin.JPG not a Qilin

This image appears to be a Lion Dog or Fu Dog/Chinese lion and not a Qilin. Fus are usually shown in pairs where when facing them the right flanking one has a ball under its left front paw and the left flanking one has a boar under its right front paw. This image is that of the right flanking Fu. Qilin, even in its most basic depiction, have three characteristics: horns like a deer, mane like a horse and body like a cow... and this Porcelain figurine have none. CJLippert (talk) 14:42, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

American Indian use of the Kirin or Qilin

An interesting example of a stone engraving shows the azure dragon, red bird woodpecker, and Mythic Qilin or kirin was discovered nearby Cahokia Mounds in Wickes, Missouri, USA. This interesting artifact is pictured here: http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound. I suggest adding a piece in the ancient cultures area about the Native American symbolism of the Qilin. This appears to be one of the only examples of the four guardians of the cardinal directions. Any suggestions? Marburg72 (talk) 02:05, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Contemporary media references

I'm removing some. Just having the same name isn't enough, for instance, that could be just a coincidence and isn't meaningful. Dougweller (talk) 11:11, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Problematic character analysis "Qilin 麒 and 麟 both carry the Chinese "deer" radical 鹿"

However, the Chinese characters of Qilin 麒 and 麟 both carry the Chinese "deer" radical 鹿, suggesting that they were conceived of as a deer like animal, or perhaps a kind of antelope.

I have removed this unsourced sentence from the Origins section of the article, for the following reasons:

• As the lede states, the characters in qilin can also be written with the "horse" radical 馬 (maybe a more recent, less traditional variant, but this would have to be addressed, and sourced).
• The giraffe is also "conceived of as a deer-like animal" in Chinese, in fact even more explicitly than the qilin. The word for "giraffe", 长颈鹿, means "long-necked deer".

CapnPrep (talk) 07:05, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

In games

I noticed that the article doesn't include the Kirin from Guild Wars: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kirin 98.157.215.93 (talk) 05:56, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Nethack also features ki-rins: http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Ki-rin — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.50.70.168 (talk) 14:38, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

The pokemon Suicune isn't mentioned and it shares similarities with the kirin.24.93.146.230 (talk) 18:25, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Can you provide sources that explain why Suicune is notable enough to be mentioned here?--Mr Fink (talk) 23:43, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Suicune's crest resembles the kirin's one horn, it has a deer-like physique like the kirin does, and it can walk on water just like the kirin can.Rth1991 (talk) 21:25, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

A description of the pokemon is not a source that describes its notability. Please provide a reliable source that explains its notability.--Mr Fink (talk) 21:42, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

What does notability have to do with anything?Rth1991 (talk) 23:01, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Did you try reading the links I provided? Simply because something looks like a qilin doesn't necessarily mean it should be mentioned in the page, especially since not everyone knows or cares what Pokemon are, and Wikipedia pages should not be or contain long, laundrylist-like lists of trivial appearances. That, and I've asked you twice for sources about Suicune.--Mr Fink (talk) 23:20, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Here's an image. http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/5/57/245Suicune_GS.pngRth1991 (talk) 18:11, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

How does a picture explain why it's notable enough? Did you even try to read the links I showed you?--Mr Fink (talk) 18:23, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Can't you just take my word?Rth1991 (talk) 18:51, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

No, because you can not explain the notability of a pokemon monster, because you can not be bothered to provide sources explaining the importance of that pokemon monster to the topic of qilins, and because you apparently have no desire or ability to click on explanatory links. I mean, if you can not be bothered to explain why anyone should take your word in the place, why should you be surprised if no one will bother to take it?--Mr Fink (talk) 20:55, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Etymology of the word qilin

The theory that qilin derives from the Somali word geri was proposed by Gabriel Ferrand in "Le nom de la giraffe dans le Ying yai cheng lan" in "Journal Asiatique" (July-August 1918) pp.155-158, and has been widely repeated; but the theory was refuted by Berthold Laufer in his "The Giraffe in History and Art" (1928) pp.98-99, where he says: "This ingenious supposition is not entirely convincing for several reasons. First, a direct contact of the Chinese with the Somali is unproved. Second, the old Chinese pronunciation gi-lin holds good only for the T'ang period, not for the fifteenth century when the Chinese actually made the acquaintance of the giraffe and when the word was articulated k'i-lin as at present. Third, the name k'i-lin was applied to the animal in China when it arrived there as early as 1414, the Chinese naturally believing that it virtually was the k'i-lin of their ancient lore. Ferrand insists that Ma Huan heard the Somali word giri at Aden, but Ma Huan himself did not visit Aden; his account of Aden is based on the report of the eunuch Li who was at Aden in 1422, but at least eight years earlier the giraffe was designated k'i-lin on Chinese soil. For these reasons the Somali hypothesis appears to me unnecessary. The question is merely of an adaptation of an old name to a novel animal, not of an attempt at transcribing a foreign word." Clearly the Chinese word "qilin", which dates back to the mid 1st millenium BCE could not have been derived from a Somali word 2,000 years before there was contact between China and Africa, and the most one could say is that the similarity of the Somali word geri with the Chinese word qilin was a reason why the Chinese called the giraffe a qilin. This is a far cry from claiming that "The word Qilin is derived from the Somali word Geri, which means Giraffe." BabelStone (talk) 20:39, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Incidentally, a foreign name for the giraffe was brought to China by Zheng He's mariners, but it was zulafa (祖剌法), from Arabic زرافة zarafah - which perhaps is ultimately derived from the Somalian word. (See e.g. 郑和下西洋与麒麟贡). -- Vmenkov (talk) 21:25, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

How did this article get connected to Cryptozoology?

How did this article get connected to Cryptozoology? I don't see any text (possibly removed?) suggesting that this was anything but a mythical beast. Kortoso (talk) 00:34, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

At some point a reference was added saying "after they disappeared from the wild". There is no evidence to suggest that anyone seriously thinks they were real creatures, so I have removed that half hearted attempt to make them sound like real world animals. --62.189.73.197 (talk) 13:57, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Unicorn, 獨角獸: Is there a source for a "mistranslation" for qilin?

Is there a source for the paragraph about unicorn being a mistranslation for qilin? At the moment it reads like some wiki editor's own interpretation and not an academic opinion. 獨角獸 seems to be a modern Chinese word translated from English or other European languages, and I don't think there is such a thing as unicorn in old Chinese text, so it is a bit odd to say that there is an actual word in Chinese for unicorn, given that Chinese won't want to confuse unicorn and qilin and they obviously won't use the same word as qilin, therefore the "actual word" is actually a word from the West. The use of unicorn as a translation for qilin appears to be a Western approximation of the mythical creature so that a Western reader can easily understand an alien concept from another culture. That happens very often, while you can say that it is not entirely accurate, that doesn't make it a mistranslation. Hzh (talk) 14:41, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Why bother adding the cantonese pronunciation for Qilin?

Just the standard mandarin pronunciation should suffice? If you want to add the cantonese version, then why not add the versions for other chinese dialects? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.92.61.229 (talk) 10:08, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Alternative names

The Japanese name needs to also be given in Japanese script, and both this and the Thai name (native and romanized) should be in the lead as alternative names. In English, by far the most common name for this topic is kirin, not qilin, due to its use in branding of a popular Japanese beer, its appearance in the Dungeons & Dragons game as the kirin, etc.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:27, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

"Qilin" refers to the Chinese mythical beast, whereas "kirin" refers to the Japanese name for the beast, hence the article being named "Qilin."--Mr Fink (talk) 04:57, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

They are the same thing, therefore both names should be given. The person who removed Kirin is wrong as alternate name is normally given in the lead so that people who come to the article would know that they have come to the right article. Hzh (talk) 17:02, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

You are wrong! You don't put a bunch of other foreign variants in the introduction of an article just because it's popular elsewhere. The Qílín is undoubtedly older since the Japanese language didn't even had final N before Chinese influence. How the myth of the Qílín spread to other countries can be included in main part. Beer brands and pop culture due to desperate otakus don't change anything. --88.67.115.83 (talk) 23:32, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

No, with all due respect, you are the one who is wrong. Despite the origin of the creature, it is believed in by more than one culture. Therefore, it is stylistically acceptable to be presented in the lede of the article. To be eligible for nomination as a "good article" in the future, it may even be necessary. Something culturally relevant to more than one nation shouldn't be exclusively hoarded by China. That also means it should mention the languages other than Japanese. Persistent Corvid (talk) 23:10, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

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"Qing era depiction of a qilin" isn't from Qing era

It's based on a Qing era art of a Qilin, and its edited from the Qing dynasty's flag of China, made in 2021 (going by file history) instead of being from that era.

Maybe the caption should be changed to something like "Qilin based on Qing era depictions"

Dromeoraptor (talk) 20:25, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

My suggestion is, "Modern recreation of a Qing era depiction of the qilin". CentreLeftRight ✉ 20:45, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Cleaned up by removing OR

I hacked away a lot of unreferenced material today, and have removed the tag. Springnuts (talk) 10:52, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: HUM 202 - Introduction to Mythology

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 15 August 2022 and 9 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Softballdad (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Softballdad (talk) 17:26, 4 October 2022 (UTC)