Talk:Fennoman movement

Finnish usage

I wonder about this line: "Those Fennomans originally Swedish-speaking learned Finnish, and made a point of using it both in the society and at home, giving their children what they missed themselves: the Finnish mother tongue."

I know this is true for some of the Fennomans, but I don't think that the likes of Runeberg and Topelius ever started using Finnish at home or in society for that matter. I've tried to find information on that they did, but I haven't found any. I just found more saying the opposite. Therefore I will change the text to saying that "some of the fennomans made a point..." and so on. If you find some info that I haven't, please write here to let others know where it can be found.

--Kike_B — Preceding unsigned comment added by Christian B (talk • contribs) 10:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I admit it looks strange. But it becomes more understandable if you know the background. Many Swedish-speaking Finns had a native Finnish background. Those Finnish-speaking Finns who went to study or to army in the previous centuries replaced their Finnish-speaking surnames by Swedish-, Latin- or Greek-speaking surnames and started using Swedish language. At those times, there was no nationalism but people thought purely pragmatically - the elite was Swedish-speaking and there was no use for Finnish in universities or in army in a high level. (By the way, not only Finns did abandon their mother tongue - also the immigrants from Germany, Russia and other countries adopted using Swedish in Finland).

So, when the national awareness began to spread in the 19th century, many Swedish-speaking people started to regard Finnish as their "true" mother tongue, even if they hardly (if at all) could speak the language. There certainly were such cases in which Swedish-speaking parents grew their children as Finnish-speakers.

I don't know if this is really comparable, but many people in Silesia (today mostly part of Poland) regard themselves native Germans, even such people who cannot speak German and only one of their grandparents has got German origin. --Gwafton (talk) 22:57, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to me to provide evidence of the point that is being made. "Regarding .. as their true mother tongue" is something entirely distinct from speaking it quotidially or even being able to speak it at all. LookingGlass (talk) 06:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Runeberg, Topelius and Sibelius

Is there anything to suggest that these three were Fennomans? They all had a strong streak of Finnish patrionism, but that's not the same thing as being a Fennoman. Unless some evidence can be presented showing that they were Fennomans in the sense of the word used in this article, I'll remove them. JdeJ 10:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lönnrot was definitely a Fennoman since he compiled Kalevala which was important in the struggle for Finnish language. Sibelius was interested in Karelianism which can be seen for example in Karelia Suite, he also went to Finnish speaking school. Topelius supported making Finnish an official language which makes him a Fennoman without a doubt (BTW his family's original name was the Finnish name Toppila). So at least these three are going back --Jaakko Sivonen 20:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that Lönnrot edited a work important to the struggle etc does not substantiate the statement that he was "definitely a Fennoman". The fact that Topelius supported some ideas of the Fennoman political movement is not the same thing as belonging to that movement. For example, if I translated a communist manifesto into Portugese that would not mean that I am a communist. This is the line of reasoning used in "witch hunts" such as those of the McCarthy era in the US. Again, I might support fiscal monetary policy, but that would not mean that I am a member of the Conservative Party. LookingGlass (talk) 06:32, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Word etymology

Could you please add the explanation where this word came from. As it appears some people misunderstood it already. Suva 15:10, 24 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Encyclopedia Britannica calls them "Fennomen" [1] Martintg 02:49, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Finnish: Fennomaani, from Finnish: Fennomania, from Fenno mania. -- Petri Krohn 09:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If that was true, the English translation would be Fennomaniac. Digwuren 15:16, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean, "if that was true"? It is true, take a look at Swedish and Finnish Wikipedias. The word originally means a nationalist ideology that follows in tracks of the earlier fennophiles. Ideology was called in Swedish "fennomani", then later in Finnish "fennomania". The opposing ideology was then "svekomani" in Swedish, "svekomania" in Finnish. Similarly one who subscribed to the ideology was "fennoman" in Swedish and "fennomaani" in Finnish, and in plural "fennomaner" and "fennomaanit" respectively. The word stems quite clearly from the word "mania". You can compare it to other words like that, for example "kleptomania" is "kleptomani" in Swedish and "kleptomania" in Finnish, person suffering from it, "kleptomaniac", is "kleptoman" in Swedish and "kleptomaani" in Finnish, similarly plural for that is "kleptomaniacs", "kleptomaner" and "kleptomaanit" respectively. It is simply ridiculous to state that the word could stem from the word "man", when it is also used as a name for ideology. Besides, while "man" is also "man" in Swedish, its plural is "män" and plural with definite article "männen", also "man" as in "human" is "människa"; in Finnish "man" can be Swedish loanword "manni" but normally is "mies", also "man" as in "human" is "ihminen". This should show that etymology from the word "man" is impossible and the word "mania" is the only origin, and this etymology is also supported by Finnish and Swedish dictionaries.

Of course, English is not logical in this subject. You are indeed correct that the idea should be called "fennomania" and the person "fennomaniac" in English. However when English borrowed the words that refer to the supporters of these ideas from Swedish, it borrowed them unchanged in their Swedish form as "fennoman" and "svekoman", often changing only the first part of the latter to get "svecoman". Therefore the correct translation "fennomaniac" never came in use in English. As it is, the English word "fennoman" is in general usage despite its incorrect formation. As such, it must be seen as a direct borrowing from Swedish, to which the standard plural form -s is added when needed. Those believing that the ending means man instead of mania/maniac an then even use -men as plural have simply misunderstood the issue. Thus Encyclopedia Britannica is, sadly, wrong on this particular issue.130.234.5.136 14:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I see, so "besättningsman" -> "crew maniac" and "rikeman" -> "rich maniac"? Is the Swedish word for "sex maniac" -> "sexman"? I thought "galning" or "dåre" was Swedish for "maniac". Martintg 21:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No. Instead of making smarty remarks, try reading the above again. Never said that the ending -man couldn't mean "man"; it does so in most words, indeed. But -maniac is also -man in Swedish, even though it's only present on a handful of words, like kleptoman or pyroman. You can see the differences between these two endings by looking at their plurals, like already explained, which you unfortunately didn't seem to care take time reading. Let's try your examples: plural of "besättningsman" is "besättningsmän", plural of "rikeman" is "rikemän" so these follow the plural of the word man, full inflection of which is: en man, mannen, män, männen. But plurals of "kleptoman" or "pyroman" don't follow this model, for they are "kleptomaner" and "pyromaner". Makes sense, doesn't it, as these word endings do not signify "man" as in "male"/"human" but come from "mania", in Swedish "mani". Two different things, is this really so hard to understand?

I understand the current English usage of the words mania and maniac is rather derogatory, but earlier on these were used rather synonymously with other terms like passion, zeal or enthusiasm, with both positive and negative sides, though naturally some terms like megalomania were never too favourable. Your "sex maniac" illustrates that the current usage pretty much puts "maniac" there instead of some other pejorative such as "crazed" or "mad", which is indeed what those translations "galning" or "dåre" would mean. Even so, as a word ending it still has its style, see "erotomaniac". Historically, the mere amity towards a nationality is termed -philia, while higher enthusiasm could earn term -mania; compare "anglophilia" and "anglomania". Someone with former is "anglophile", with latter, "anglomaniac". Same with "francomania" or "gallomania". Similarly to those, in Swedish arose an idea of "fennomani" [2], which would properly be translated to English as "fennomania". A person with such idea is "fennoman" [3], which would be "fennomaniac" in proper English. But as said, the word came to English unchanged as "fennoman"; such a loan word takes the normal -s ending, and must not be confused with false etymologies from "men". --130.234.5.138 00:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

35 books that mention "Fennomen" [4] Martintg 11:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fennomans: 1860 Google hits [5], Fennomen: 3360 Google hits [6] Martintg 11:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

64 books use "Fennomans". Many of the "Fennomen" googles are misprints or mistypes for "Fenomen" (one n), which is German for "phenomenon" (even two Fennomen book googles look like they rather refer to that) and is also a hip hop group ([7]). --Pan Gerwazy 19:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, lets remove those two googled book references, that is stil 33 books mentioning "fennomen" compared to 64 mentioning "fennomans", a significant number by any standard, so it is not all that clear cut. Martintg 21:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Translating it to -maniac would be incorrect and biased since the word "mania" does not have the negative meaning in Finnish that it has in English. "Maniac" alone would never be translated as maani but more like hullu etc... Thus including the word maniac gives the impression that the writers have something personal against this movement, especially since there isn't a mention of "Svecomaniac" in the article Svecoman... --88.114.235.214 19:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let's see what Wikipedia says on the subject:

Maniac is a disambiguation page, listing the following:
1. A person who exhibits the behaviour known as mania
2. A classification of serial killer
3. ...
The article Mania has a hatnote:
This article is an expansion of a section entitled Mania from within the main article Bipolar disorder. For the classical mythological figures named Mania, see Mania (mythology)

I cannot see any difference in the use of the word maniac between Finnish and English. It is evident from the context that we are not calling Fennomans or Svecomans serial killers. -- Petri Krohn 22:37, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a reliable source as anyone working on it knows, that page doesn't even cite sources... I will quote a dictionary on maniac:

1 : MADMAN, LUNATIC
2 : a person characterized by an inordinate or ungovernable enthusiasm for something

Source: [8] Are you claiming that "madman" or "ungovernable enthusiasm" are neutral words to describe people whose aim was to elevate the language spoken by their Fatherland's majority? --88.114.235.214 20:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that "elevate a language" is/was a euphemism for "make it sound posh". I believe Snellman spoke of elevating the Finnish language so that it was "fit for international commerce". I wonder if anyone has ever thought this of their language before, though Snellman's mather tongue was Swedish. When the leaders of West Africa traded with Europeans did they worry about their grammar or did they simply trade? As far as I can gather the Finnish language was recognised since Agricola. LookingGlass (talk) 19:34, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Red herring

Wow, what a storm in a teacup! And something of a red herring in my opinion. Mania is used in Fennomania in the same way as mania might be (though unadvisedly!) in English - a craze. Why it was chosen is imo just another illustration of the continuing confusion in Finland of the meaning and use of English words. Words have many nuances. That's it. There is no certainty such as being furiously debated here. The interesting bit is "Fenno-" as the Finnish for Finland is: Suomi, and for a Finn: suomalainen. The word "Fenn/o/i" etc simply doesn't exist in Finnish. At best it is a loan word from the Romans who regarded the place as a swamp. The term was derogatory. So, how on earth did a Finnish nationalist party, promoting the use and establishment and supremacy of the Finnish language as a national language come to use an English title for itself?!? Ironic or what?? LookingGlass (talk) 14:07, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The last line of the Fennoman motto (Swedish) uses the word ""finnar" (pl. finne) so it would seem that the word Finn aat least is derived not from the Roman/Latin but from the Swedish - "finne". The motto also uses the word "vara". Both these words in Swedish have negative meanings as well: finne can also mean a pimple, vara can also mean to suppurate but it is also used in mathematics (apparently). Curiouser and curiouser. The oldest use of the word Finn (not Fenn) comes from the "Latin" transliteration of Swedish runes on gravestones (13c?). So does anyone know how/when/where Finn- was "changed" to Fenn- and/or how/why it was adopted/originated by the party? LookingGlass (talk) 07:20, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

References

I noticed the flag and that the talk page both has no section for any discussion arising from the flag AND that comments made here haven't provided the references their editors have found. If you have some sources/references please help improve the article's quality by providing them. LookingGlass (talk) 14:16, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Motto

The Fennoman motto is cited as a translation of the Swedish, and the Swedish appears to be the original. I have made some minor refinements to the translation given. In addition to the grammatical modification I have substituted: "no more" for: "no longer", as both of these English phrases have their own counterpart in Swedish (inte längre - no longer http://www.sanakirja.org/search.php?id=936891&l2=3).

The irony in the fact that the political movement to supplant Swedish with Finnish as the national language of Finland chose for itself a motto in Swedish (!) deserves some mention imo. I cannot conceive how this could have come to be. LookingGlass (talk) 07:29, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The motto is said to come from Arwidsson and I am not sure if he can be regarded as fennoman. As far as I know, he didn't want to dump the Swedish part of the Finnish heritage, although he wanted to investigate the "true cultural roots of Finns" (or whatsoever). He wanted to underline the uniqueness of the Finnish nation and culture and that Finland shall not be hosted by any of its neighbours. The slogan seems to have been, however, useful for the fennomans.

Swedish is one of the national languages of Finland - Finnish got an official status in the Grand Duchy as late as in 1860s. --Gwafton (talk) 21:12, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fennophile

Fennophile now redirects to Fennoman movement. That is not adequate because the target article says nothing about fennophiles except in the short lead, which notes that fennoman succeeded fennophile. --P64 (talk) 19:09, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]